Spoiler: SEO Success Is Trial and Error with Holly Homer

0:00Holly Homerthis is all just trial and error. And just doing something every day over many, many years.

0:06I always laugh and say i'm like last vlogger standing.

0:08Which I feel like they're gonna totally give me a trophy for at some point.

0:12It really is just about being persistent in your business. Even though A lot of days we don't even know what that looks like.

0:20Like, ah! Okay, I'm going to do this because I don't know what else to do today.

0:23And that opens doors that on the internet that is just like unbelievable.

0:29It's crazy what you can build if you just, Put a Lego brick in every day.

0:33Crystal WaddellWelcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show. The podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence.

0:48Thank you so much for being here.

0:50Let's jump into another great episode.

0:52Welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO Show podcast. We are with a brainy business owner, Miss Holly Homer.

1:00And she is going to tell us all about her new product and streamlining digital product production. But Holly is co founder of PageWheel.

1:11And she has also been a blogger for a decade or more.

1:14So Holly, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to hear all about you and your business adventures.

1:21Holly HomerThank you so much. And yes, it's actually longer than a decade. It's two decades.

1:2620 years ago, I accidentally started one of the first mom blogs.

1:30So that over the years has turned into what now supports my family. Which is a blog, kidsactivities. com.

1:38And and I run a few other sites.

1:40And then in the last two years, co founded PageWheel.

1:43Which is a digital product maker.

1:44Basically, make a product and because we know what you made in there.

1:49It will write your sales page, thank you page, your delivery emails and all the social media you need to promote it.

1:55It's all done with AI. In a way that AI actually does something, like, productive. Instead of just talks to you.

2:02And so I'm really excited about it cause it solved a problem that I had like significant problem that I

2:07Crystal Waddellhad.

2:07I do use my little AI assistants as, therapy .

2:12But it is good to know that this business tool could be used for business.

2:15I'm super excited to hear about it.

2:17Over the last year, I've dove into some digital product conversations.

2:22And I joined a launch with other digital product sellers.

2:26I was speaking about SEO, but I realized, I really am interested in the digital product space.

2:32Because that's so attractive to make something one time.

2:36And then sell it over and over again.

2:38Is that what your product helps people do?

2:41Holly HomerYes, absolutely. It can be from simple to more complex. But simplest, application that we see, and I use every day.

2:47Is you can make let's say you need to opt in. And hey, I need an opt in for this podcast.

2:52And like before, that was like super daunting.

2:54Like you had to create something.

2:56And then like the landing pages. And the funnels. And all these things.

2:59And so now like you could go in make a simple checklist. And we know you made that checklist.

3:04So it's going to automatically run those other pages. And you can go through and make edits if you want to.

3:09Or if you Like the way that it looks you can just like Keep saying yes.

3:12That looks great. And so you could actually launch that in just a few minutes.

3:16The other thing that, you know, what if you wanted to sell something?

3:19Or let's say you wanted to sell that one page checklist.

3:21With maybe a video series on that supports it. So you could like, charge $50.

3:27Just change the price. And then go add some videos to that thank you page.

3:31Because no one's going to see that unless they've paid you or opted in.

3:34So there's so many different ways to go about this.

3:37Whether it's about the digital product.

3:40Or maybe the knowledge that you're going to share with the digital product as a kind of a sideline.

3:45Crystal WaddellSo what's interesting to me is normally we're talking about optimization on the front end. To get people to our website.

3:53And what we're talking about now is like the types of things that you do once people have arrived at your website, but you want them to now take another action.

4:04Holly HomerYeah.

4:05And, I would say the the other thing is I actually started with the opt in situation because of SEO.

4:13So think about this. Like we know Google loves to find the best resource.

4:19Obviously a good title. A good context. A good, good description.

4:24Alt text, captions, headers, all these things.

4:27And then, we found oh, Google really likes structure.

4:30Oh, so let's add numbers.

4:32And let's add, different elements that Google's oh, I know what that is.

4:35Recipe cards, how to cards. Those kind of things.

4:38I feel like, the game gets upleveled every few years.

4:41Because oh, we all figure this out. And then we're all competing for that front page.

4:45Jockeying for those coveted positions at the top.

4:48And so then you start saying, okay. Oh, make sure mine has a video.

4:52Because that confirms to Google that yes. She's talking about what she said.

4:57And oh, she has additional information.

4:59And oh, she has a, not only is it in text and in a card.

5:01But it's also in video.

5:03And I started doing like PDFs type, files within those top ranked posts. As an additional resource.

5:11So if they liked it in video and they liked it in text and they liked it here.

5:15They might like it in printable form.

5:17And so and what I found was the more and more You know assets that I was putting into those posts. The better the search results.

5:26Which makes sense because google in the end Wants to send those people to the best on the internet. For whatever they're searching.

5:34So if you can take them on that journey a lot of times, you know You Because it's been so labor intensive, people have been skipping that checklist.

5:42It occurred to me one of my top posts several years ago was, like, a hundred things you should throw out today. Or donate to charity, let's be clear.

5:51But, the big catch was, like, you don't need these things.

5:54And then there's no checklist.

5:56I mean like there's literally no checklist in that post.

5:58It was a very popular post. It was like what a missed opportunity.

6:02Because someone's all in saying Yeah, I need to get rid of these things.

6:05But what are they gonna do? Carry around my like my blog post?

6:08And that was one of the first things.

6:09I was like, okay. Let's make a pdf so that they can actually put it on the clipboard and check it off.

6:14And so that mentality has been with me Like, literally, when I have something that's doing really well with Google, my next step is: what asset can I add to that?

6:25That's going to keep me on that front page or elevate me to that front page?

6:30Crystal WaddellOoh, I just, I love that so much.

6:32That's such a smart way to reflect upon it. And then you just keep going.

6:37I was just talking to somebody in my small group yesterday.

6:40I have a small group called the SEO squad.

6:43Where I meet with business owners every week and we talk about their websites.

6:47I troubleshoot everything. Like whether it's Wix, Shopify.

6:50WordPress, whatever.

6:51And that's another place people get stuck because it's I don't know all of the whatever's.

6:56And I'm like, look, I may not know it, but I will help you work through it. You know what I mean?

7:00And sometimes that's just what somebody needs.

7:01They just need somebody to walk with them through it.

7:04Being able to look back and say, okay. This is what my person needs, but then how to deliver it?

7:10That gets really complicated.

7:11So I'm assuming that this is a place where paid will can come in and help you deliver that.

7:16Is that part of the process?

7:18Holly HomerAbsolutely.

7:19I had started just adding opt ins to kids activities blog.

7:23Partially because it was an asset to those posts that I needed google to find. And send me traffic.

7:29Because I monetize through traffic only on kids activities blog for the most part. And so, I need that traffic.

7:35So that so like the seo is important.

7:37But then I realized, I gated all of my PDFs with an email opt in.

7:42And then I'm getting them on my list, and then I control the traffic. And that's what's so beautiful about an email list is when you have the email list you control the traffic.

7:53So then You can think about this in the respects of like social proof to Google.

8:00So let's say you have just published a post that you know is going to be like an ultra competitive market.

8:08But you can send 3, 000 visits from your email list today.

8:14Like you can see how that's going to affect your Google ranking really, really quickly.

8:20Cause it's not like you just launched that and said, Hey Google, come find it. You're like, Hey Google.

8:25You need to find this because other people already like it. Like I have people coming from pinterest.

8:30I have people coming from facebook.

8:32I have people coming from my email list. But quite honestly I can't always depend on the algorithms of the social media networks.

8:39Like I can put the best pin in the world up and it doesn't deliver traffic until 18 months later. Or on facebook, They might just say yeah, we're not sending traffic today.

8:48But your email list that you control. They're your people.

8:52Because they opted in to your list and they're on your list. They'll come.

8:57Crystal WaddellWow.

8:57That, that just kind of like made my mind explode because you always think about, yeah, you need to be sending people to your blog posts and your weekly content or dah, dah, dah, or whatever.

9:07But to actually have a reason that it shows Google that all of these people are going there.

9:12I never thought about that as a signal to a search engine to say, this is really popular and dot, dot, dot.

9:19That's really interesting. I never thought about it that way. And I think one of the things I wanted to touch on earlier was that.

9:25SEO is only the tip of the iceberg. You know what I mean? It's like the initial thing to get people to your site.

9:31And then it's okay, then what? Like the conversion, how do we do the nurturing?

9:36And so I'm just curious, do you have just riffing off the top of your head, like client journey, mapping best practices that you do to make all of these things work together?

9:49Holly HomerYeah.

9:49I would love to tell you that it is drawn out in graphs and things, but no. I like, literally wing this on a daily basis.

9:56And then I am a huge numbers girl.

9:59So like, I will throw like all the spaghetti at the wall. And then I'm going to go look at my analytics and see what stuck and what didn't.

10:07And then my whole business is built on doing more of what works and doing less of what doesn't.

10:13So for instance. When somebody comes into my email list, I am going to email the heck out of them.

10:20They're going to get at least a daily email, if not two. Every day. Until they just unsubscribe from my list and why?

10:27Because I don't want them on my list if they have not bought into the whole kids activities thing.

10:33And if they have bought into the kids activities, I solve a problem for that every day.

10:37Because i'm sending them basically a social media feed of ideas.

10:42In my email, I'm going to send them links to something for everyone on that list.

10:46You're going to have things to do with your preschooler.

10:48You're going to have something to cook tonight.

10:50You're going to have something, a way to organize your house. Basically, all things mom is going to arrive in your inbox at least once a day.

10:57And so I'm solving the problem of if they didn't have time to go scroll endlessly through Facebook today. I just, I know who you are.

11:07I know like you have kids. I know that you're busy. Let me solve those problems for you.

11:13So I monetize through traffic coming back from, from the email list and other places, of course.

11:18But then I'm also able to know, okay.

11:21They really like, potty training.

11:24Or a segment of them, might really like potty training.

11:27I know, because i've been in this market for 20 years. I know the best potty training like potty train in a weekend by becky mansfield. Best on the market.

11:35So i'm going to put that out to the people who are potty training and say hey! I know your pain point.

11:42I have three boys. Totally understand how your life is really hard right now.

11:46Here, let this weekend product, which is very inexpensive. For the amount of relief it's going to cause you your house.

11:54We'll solve it.

11:55And so, it's a natural fit. Because they know me through my content.

12:00They know that if I said it i'm not just going to throw something out there just to make a buck.

12:05I'm going to be like no, this is a pain point for me.

12:07And this solved it. So let me help you solve it too.

12:09Crystal WaddellSo essentially you have curated Resources and solutions for people. And so then you can recommend them consistently.

12:19Even to the new people that come in.

12:22Holly HomerExactly. And, and you think about something like potty training is a, is a really good example. They might come into my list because they like found my, activities to do with your babies.

12:31So they're not thinking potty training.

12:33Like they don't even know what is ahead of them. And so they are on my list They're on my list. They're on my list.

12:38And all of a sudden they have 18 month old and they're like, oh my goodness. I didn't know that this was going to be a challenge.

12:44And so that's when so these things that are cyclical. And evergreen.

12:49And then let's think about the holidays.

12:50What can I make to give my teacher? You know for teacher appreciation?

12:54Like these are just elements in every single parent's life. Or caregivers, grandparents. Whoever's taking care of these kids has these pain points.

13:04And so not only do we have free content that solves these issues.

13:08But we also have like that second level, Affiliated products.

13:12Our own products. Whatever it takes.

13:15And i'm with you, we mentioned before we came on.

13:17Is that you're like, hey if I find an affiliated product and I don't have my own.

13:21Like I would like I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I could just make money from something that I really believe in.

13:27And I know is better than what I could do myself. Or it would take me a million years to do it.

13:31So that, so a lot of times it's things that I used.

13:34And my kids are like all in college now. So sometimes I have to go with recommendations of People of today.

13:39But if you find something amazing. And you're solving that problem for someone.

13:43And they have that problem. And you're like, hey this amazing thing solved that problem.

13:47It's not even about sales at this point.

13:49It's about it's a really good match. And they're like, thank you!

13:53Just like your best friend would be like, Why were you withholding the best potty training product that costs $21?

14:00Crystal WaddellAnd this is really interesting because when you were talking about, like you're sending these two emails a day.

14:05How do you create that feed? That consistently pushes out that email?

14:10Holly HomerYeah. We do it by hand. We write those emails every day.

14:13On kids activities blog, I really use the front page of my blog as a social media feed. So we're publishing eight to 10 times a day.

14:23So it's like a coloring page. A fact sheet. Something organized. Something for parents.

14:27It's basically what I think you're going to want today.

14:31Or here's a holiday coming up or here's the eclipse.

14:34Or here's the next thing that you need to think about.

14:36Here's teacher appreciation day.

14:38Here's a hundred days of school. All these different things that I have on my editorial calendar.

14:43Because I've been in this space since the dinosaurs roamed the internet.

14:47Is that, they don't have to go out and search for it. Because I know that's what you need today.

14:52You know why I know that? Because you needed it last year at this time.

14:56And you need the year before at this time. And so thinking about how you're serving your readers on an editorial calendar.

15:04And then because it's on the editorial calendar, it's going out into the email. It's also going out to Pinterest.

15:09It's going out to Facebook. It's going out to all the things because we know In this time period, this is what you need.

15:16Crystal WaddellWow. Okay. So we just jumped from SEO, bringing people to the site.

15:21To, having a great opt in that gets them on your list.

15:25To then having an editorial calendar that meets their needs and where they're at.

15:30You've had years and years of experience to build this.

15:32And I want to say your site is beautiful.

15:34Because when I think of affiliate websites. And you say you monetize through visitors.

15:39I'm expecting to see like a bunch of ads everywhere from start to finish.

15:43And so like your homepage is beautiful. It doesn't feel congested with ads and that type of stuff.

15:48So kudos to you. That's really awesome.

15:50But when you're just starting out, like, how do you make that editorial calendar?

15:54Are there some big things that you should do first? And then fill things in?

15:58Or, is there a strategy there that might help us?

16:01Holly HomerYeah. And here again, we don't want to overthink this.

16:04So like what you're going to do probably the first year.

16:07Or it might even be in the first couple of years.

16:09Depending on how like aggressive you're like creating content.

16:13Is like you go ahead and set up a Google sheet.

16:17And so you're just going to put, Hey, I wrote to make a paper plate koala today.

16:22And so you're going to put the link.

16:24And you're going to put your date that you published it.

16:26Because when you write, you don't know this, but you're on an editorial calendar.

16:31Because you're thinking, Oh, like the, okay teacher appreciation is coming up.

16:35Let's write something for teacher appreciation.

16:37Or end of school. Or, the next thing is mother's day and father's day. Let's do that content.

16:42And you made that in April. Because it made sense for the internet, to publish in April.

16:48So what you're going to do is put that on your April editorial calendar.

16:52So you're just going to keep track of whatever content you make this year.

16:56And then at the end of the year you're going to duplicate that sheet. And put the next year at the top.

17:03So when April comes around, again, you realize, oh.

17:08I wrote these in April for a reason.

17:10Let's go ahead, and make sure that they're updated for this April.

17:15And if you're anything like me, that early content you write when you see it again, you're like cringing.

17:21What was I thinking? When I wrote this?

17:24And so Go ahead and update it! Make it better.

17:27You've learned since you wrote it! So so write it out push it out again to your email list.

17:33To your social media, to your pinterest, all the things!

17:36And then this year...

17:37so you have all the stuff you made last year. This year, you're going to write new stuff.

17:41So you can see how the first year, you might be publishing once or twice or three times a week.

17:46The next year you might be in effect publishing every day.

17:51Because. You have this other content that you are you already know is appropriate. And your people like it.

17:57And then the next year you can see how you're just layering in.

18:01So the first year is more about just doing it. The second year is more about filling in the gaps a little bit.

18:07And then the third year you're gonna start thinking about, what am I missing?

18:11If I'm known for kids activities, what would a mom expect today from me? That I'm not delivering on?

18:19And so that's where every year it just gets a little bit deeper.

18:23Gone is the day that you write the blog post a really good blog post and then never look at it again. That's just waste of your time.

18:32Go in and optimize it. Go in and repin it. Go in and reshare it. Go put it in your email three times this month. If it was something really good that solves a problem, look at the data.

18:43Only 30 percent of those people are even opening that email at any given time, so make sure you put it in three times so at least you can hit hopefully close to 90 by the time you, like that month is over and that content is out of date.

18:56Crystal WaddellGosh, that's fantastic. And just recently someone reached out to me to help me with my email.

19:02And I use Klaviyo for my email service provider.

19:06I actually have what you just described.

19:09I never had a fancy name for it or whatever.

19:10But it was like my strategic plan that I had broken down by weeks and every month or whatever.

19:15But, somewhere along the way, I just ran out of time to implement it.

19:19This also answers the question of when to go back and optimize.

19:23And just having this calendar in place. And this process in place to continually update that information.

19:30And just like you said, you might have a great blog post from two years ago, but guess what?

19:34Now you can make it even better by having that PDF.

19:37Or making a video. Or, including like user generated content or whatever might have happened in that time period.

19:43These are just such wonderful examples of okay, you get people to your website. Because you want to sell your thing or sell your service.

19:51But you can make it even better by then showing the next group of people how other people have used your product or service. Or how you've made it better.

19:59And then you can send it out to your email. All of this is really just landing like in context of one another. So thank you so much for sharing that.

20:07Holly HomerYeah.

20:08And It really. It is simplified.

20:09Because the truth is, on Kids Activities.

20:12At one point, I counted, we had 350 Halloween posts.

20:16Okay. No blog in the world needs 350 Halloween posts.

20:21Maybe if you're a Halloween only site.

20:24It's partially because we weren't cultivating the best. Updating. We were just making new. Every year.

20:31Make new. And without strategy.

20:34Kids activities blog has 13, 000 blog posts on it.

20:37So I'm dealing with a lot of content.

20:39Depending on how much stuff you have, you're going to be dealing with different ideas. And like levels of prioritization.

20:45So now what I do to say, okay. I have basically 30 days of Halloween content.

20:52That I need to push out to my people to serve them the best.

20:56I need to come up with the best from that pool. And you know who usually tells me the best? Google.

21:03Google knows which of those is good posts and which is bad. Now, I might disagree with them every once in a while.

21:09And so I would go back. And maybe try to optimize something I think Google should like. And sometimes they'll totally fix it.

21:16Crystal WaddellYeah. So that was my question. When you say Google tells you, is it just by, page views? Or clicks? Or that type of thing? And how does Google tell you that?

21:25Holly HomerYou could do this through Google analytics.

21:27Search console is a really good place to find a lot of this data.

21:31I might go to search console and type in Halloween as a keyword.

21:35And see what are my top Google posts as far as Halloween.

21:39I'd also maybe go to Pinterest and see what are my top Pinterest Halloween because that doesn't always correspond.

21:45A lot of times it does.

21:47You think about like, where is the data?

21:50So if if Google's Hey, here's your top 30 halloween content, I'm going to go through and make sure doubly make sure.

21:58That those are in the best place for Google.

22:01They're linked together. That they have the resources and stuff like that, that they need.

22:06So each year I'm going to go in and look at those and say, Hey, did any of these fall out of that top 30?

22:12Do I have new ones in the top 30 I didn't have before?

22:15The other thing I look at besides just the data.

22:18My core mission to my website.

22:22Is that someone can come find something to do with their kid. And not have to visit the store first.

22:28So if I look at some of these crafts that maybe were published like 10 years ago.

22:34That like they just they were a really good idea. But they weren't necessarily executed.

22:39And if you look at your old content, it's so funny.

22:41It's like There's not even instructions on this. It's just like a picture and a, a story.

22:46So like I might update that with a tutorial. And maybe make a video or update the photos.

22:51Or make that idea like fresh again. And current.

22:56And then you know what's really interesting about that?

22:58Because that URL has been taking up real estate on the internet for so long.

23:03A lot of times Google's like, Thank God! We've been trying to send people to that, but it's so bad.

23:09The funny thing is it's a lot of times those posts that you might update with your like logical brain today.

23:16Versus what you just wrote, several years ago. It often will catch Google's attention in a way that you couldn't do even a new post.

23:24Crystal WaddellWow. That's so interesting.

23:26And then you mentioned like internal linking.

23:29And, linking those posts together.

23:32How do you do that?

23:33Do you do it by images? Do you do it by like the bottom of the page? Like just a bunch of different article links? Or how do you do that internal linking for the top 30 pages?

23:43Holly HomerSo I'm an internal linking junkie. So I might need some sort of therapy for this.

23:48But this is my thought process.

23:50Is I've been on the internet. My domain ranking is decent.

23:54To the point where I get, 50 emails a day asking to buy links on my site. But the truth is they want links from any site. So no, even if you started your blog today.

24:04The strategy is going to work for you. Because internal linking is something you control.

24:09I feel like if you write something and put it out there. And it's been out there for a while and you didn't even link to it.

24:17Google's like, you didn't even like it. So it's a quality signal to Google.

24:23So let's say we're doing a paper plate craft.

24:26I have I don't know, 150 paper plate crafts on the site.

24:30Guess what?

24:31If you come and arrive and you're thinking okay, I have a stack of paper plates. And I have some crayons, and I have some glue.

24:38But that's all I got. You hit that first one, and you're like, Oh, that has a thing I don't have.

24:43I don't have googly eyes today. Or I don't have yarn. So you're like.

24:46But at the bottom, if I'm like, Hey! Here's 15 other paper plate crafts that you might like.

24:52You as a user is gonna like oh, thank goodness.

24:55Because like I don't have this stuff, but this looked really fun.

24:58And I have 15 minutes to do with this, preschooler. And who i'm about to You know tear my hair out if we don't have something to do together.

25:06And so then they're like, oh we'll click through this, click through this.

25:08And so Google sees that the user is clicking through those links in a organic way. Saying, okay.

25:16That wasn't what I was looking for. But instead of going back to google. And googling more paper plate crafts.

25:21I'm keeping them on my site.

25:23Sending them then in through the other ones I think they might like.

25:26So, like my simple, paper plate crafts might be linked to my other simple paper plate crafts.

25:32Whereas, my more complex crafts might be linked to my more complex crafts.

25:36Or let's say you're doing like a letter A lesson with your preschooler.

25:41So that you're going to come to find our letter A activities.

25:45And then I'm going to link to letter A coloring pages, letter A worksheets, more letter A crafts.

25:51Like you can think about someone coming to that. One thought in mind.

25:55But then thinking, oh!

25:56If I can just print this free coloring page that also goes along with this lesson that we were going to do at home, so that my kid knows the letter a. That's a no brainer.

26:06Like I'm totally staying on. I'm totally in for that journey. So you talk about like that customer or that reader journey.

26:13And a lot of times it's as simple as presenting what they might want next. And a lot of times those people are going to be a little bit different.

26:22And that's why internal linking makes so much sense because.

26:25Like on that, that apple paper plate craft, I might say at the bottom.

26:31Are you looking for more a crafts? Here's more. Here's an alligator craft.

26:36Here's an airplane craft.

26:37And then I might say, are you looking for other apple things?

26:41Here's an apple snack. Here's an apple coloring page.

26:44So like you can see as as People arrive at that, they may have come for different reasons.

26:51And then you can take them on that next journey with those internal links below.

26:56And if you go to any post on Kids Activities Blog, you'll see.

26:59A lot of times I just have a long linked list, or I have multiple linked lists based on what I think they might want to do next.

27:05Crystal WaddellOkay, we'll definitely link to that so that people can see the examples.

27:09And it makes me just want to go back and have little kids!

27:11Because I'm like, Oh, man, that I could have did with my son.

27:15But I was just trying to survive at that point.

27:17See, these are survival activities.

27:20Yeah, that's so great.

27:22So when you look at your website that is so thorough.

27:26And all of those, links and activities and everything together.

27:31Does your product still serve a website like yours? Or is it more for the person who's I don't have any of that?

27:39I just need to get started.

27:40Or, how would you connect those two products together?

27:43Holly HomerYeah I love it for both. I use it every day.

27:46And we're talking about PageWheel.

27:48But I might use it in a little bit different way. Than you, coming in.

27:53Maybe getting started with your email list.

27:56For instance, because like on kids activities blog I have about 2,000 opt ins.

28:02So yeah, I know.

28:03I started with one opt in box. Actually I started with zero.

28:07So this is something that as you figure out what you want to do, it gets easier and easier over time.

28:12If you have under 50 opt ins, you can use like your ConvertKit tools, PageWheel tools.

28:17If you have over 50, I think you probably are going to try to figure out some way to manage it.

28:21Because it does get a little unwieldy. That's where I was.

28:23So now, we invented PageWheel.

28:26And it's so easy to create an opt in. Super easy.

28:29So what I do is I make an opt in in PageWheel. So that I can add them to my site.

28:34i'm going to download that opt in I made in PageWheel.

28:37But the secret sauce herei'm going to go ahead and allow it to create a sales page and a delivery page for me.

28:44Because it creates these mock ups.

28:47That i'm then going to screenshot.

28:49And put them into the blog post or whatever.

28:52And I'm also going to grab some of the language created around that product.

28:57And put it into my normal system.

29:00So I'm making these things. And then pulling all the things I want out of it.

29:04And then I might go run like, okay, give me some Pinterest descriptions, or whatever I need to promote it.

29:10So I'm taking that and putting it into my established system.

29:13If you don't have an established system, it's going to just be easier for you to let PageWheel create that system.

29:20And then you're going to leverage that system until you outgrow it.

29:23Crystal WaddellYeah.

29:24And so if you already have the system, then PageWheel is an amazing optimization tool.

29:29Holly HomerYes, yes. It's just going to save me a lot of time. And instead of me having to go to Canva and create something from scratch.

29:36I go to PageWheel.

29:38And create a PDF in just seconds. Because we have all these templates.

29:42And it will add a cover. It will add an about me page, whatever you want.

29:46Or, I do this all the time, too.

29:47Maybe I have like an "a" coloring page.

29:49So I'm going to upload that. And then i'm going to add maybe, like an "a" activity craft page.

29:55So I might make a whole "a" booklet.

29:57That I pulled in for maybe one pdf of mine and then use the templates already in PageWheel to create.

30:03Maybe a 10 page book about hey, let's have fun with the letter a today!

30:07And so then, I can just download that.

30:09Put it into my existing system.

30:11Grab those mockups and pictures that come in automatically from your sales page.

30:17And some of that language.

30:18And so it's a lot easier for me than if I would be like, Oh.

30:21I have to go make something from scratch today.

30:24I'll be really, really like honest here. I didn't make my PDFs. I hired that out until PageWheel came up.

30:30Crystal WaddellYeah. And it's interesting because remember I asked you earlier if it generated an image. And you're like, Oh no. It doesn't do that yet.

30:36But technically, for digital products.

30:39Holly HomerFor digital products, it says, yeah.

30:41So it doesn't create like the AI images.

30:44Cause I don't think we're quite there on AI images. And we will work with that when it is possible. But what it does do is it knows what it looks like.

30:51'cause you designed it there. And so it puts it onto different mockups.

30:55And fans out all the pages that you made behind the cover. So yes, in effect it does make images. Thank you for that. I hadn't even thought about that.

31:03Crystal WaddellYeah. I'm thinking of the fact that like getting digital product images is a little bit of a bear.

31:08Because if you go into Canva, you gotta have the graphics to pull into the digital mockups to see that array. Or the fan out of all of the pages.

31:15So that's a huge value add for it to already be there. And to be able to screenshot it.

31:20Holly HomerFor those who are going to experiment with it.

31:22So the cool thing is the sales page has a vertical image where the pages go up. And so they make really nice portrait, like a Pinterest pin.

31:31Or a blog post image or something like that. And then on the thank you page, it's like a horizontal image where the cover and then all the pages out to the side. So that's better for Facebook. Or like anything that needs to be wider.

31:44Crystal WaddellSo you mentioned that when you first created Pagewheel, it started as a product that's a little bit different than it is now.

31:51Can you tell us, why Pagewheel even came into existence? And, walk us through its evolution?

31:57Holly HomerYeah. It was about two and a half years ago.

31:59Rachel Miller and I have a site together called One Crazy House.

32:03It's like fun hacks, house hacks. Tips and tricks and stuff like that. So we were creating basically a series of products. That were category based.

32:12So if you're on our cleaning product, we wanted to offer you a cleaning guide for, seven bucks.

32:17Or, if you were on the camping articles, we wanted to offer you a camping guide for $7 or whatever.

32:23Like we're talking low ticket products. But thinking that, Hey.

32:26We have all this content that's top of funnel for this. And so let's do this.

32:30So I'm notoriously bad at like all the tech. Let's be clear. So Rachel was like, no, I'll build.

32:37Cause she's really good at the tech side of things and the funnel building.

32:40So she was building this funnel. Which like takes, six hours or so hooking it up.

32:45And then cloning it for all the different products.

32:48And then I was doing the customer service on the other end.

32:51And as you can imagine, if you've ever built one funnel, if one thing goes wrong.

32:55It literally is this wild goose chase to go back and find.

32:59And I was just like Rachel, this is stupid hard.

33:02And by the way, the expensive equipment. That we're using.

33:07So like, we are $200 in a month on this.

33:11Then we had a series of opt ins. Which was the thing same thing. Like why is this so hard?

33:16And Rachel and I have been off and on partners for the last 15 years.

33:20She was like, I think I can solve this for you... and we might as well solve it for everyone. Do you want to create a software that will do this?

33:27And I'm like, yes. Yeah.

33:29But, of course. I had no idea. What I was getting into.

33:35And neither did she. And so we bootstrapped this thing over the last couple of years.

33:40And in the middle of it, AI became a thing. So we integrated AI behind the scenes. To help us create these templates.

33:49But it took a little longer. And a few more dollars than we were expecting.

33:52Crystal WaddellYeah, it's always like that.

33:54But I think it's really cool.

33:55I started as an e commerce seller. So what I'm used to dealing with is product pages.

34:00So as I started learning about how other online business owners set up their business, that's when I learned about opt in pages.

34:07And landing pages.

34:09And landing pages really threw me for a loop for a while.

34:11Because I was like, isn't it like a product page?

34:14Why would I want to create all this?

34:15If I just want somebody to check out?

34:17Shouldn't I just send them to my page to buy the thing?

34:19Like I really struggled with that. So I can appreciate what you guys are doing.

34:24Even one of the clients I work with.

34:26They moved from having, these landing pages to just opening a Shopify store. Because look, just buy the thing.

34:33Holly HomerYeah.

34:34And I think one of the things that's happened through this process, and quite honestly, this is a lesson I learned almost every day online. For over the last 20 years.

34:42You'd think I'd learn it by now.

34:43Is we tend to overcomplicate everything. Like keeping it simple is really the only way we can accomplish this.

34:50Because we most of us do not have, unlimited resources or a huge team.

34:54A lot of times we're tackling this with ourselves, maybe with one or two other team members.

34:59And so you can't be elaborate when you're like, duct taping your life together.

35:04And so one of the other things that's happened, and I know that you alluded to this earlier.

35:08Is that We launched this into beta about a year ago. And we had the most amazing customers come in.

35:15We were encouraging them to go in and break it.

35:17And also tell us how they're using it. And then what they need to make that better. And so what we launched a year ago.

35:26In theory, is the same product.

35:28But in practice is entirely different today. The nuts and bolts behind, behind it are still, our initial vision.

35:35But we get so excited to see all the use cases that our customers are using.

35:40Just crazy amounts of people sharing information. Because.

35:44All of a sudden we've taken that like tech obstacle off their plate.

35:49Crystal WaddellIt's a tool that integrates other tools.

35:52And that's what makes it more simple. Is because it's integrated into your tool.

35:56Holly HomerYeah, so our tool provides everything from the product maker. Basically to the delivery page.

36:02And the first delivery email.

36:04And then you might take over at that point into your email list.

36:08And then the other thing that we do is since we do know you made this.

36:11We create social media calendars, blog posts, anything that basically AI can do.

36:17We have templates and all these kind of things. Where you just, yeah, you tell us what you made. Or you could use it for other things, too.

36:22you tell us the product or what you want to talk about.

36:25Crystal WaddellWant to go ahead and just give people where they can find PageWheel, where they can find you?

36:29And yeah, just whatever else you might want to share.

36:32Holly HomerYeah.

36:32Obviously Pagewheel.Com.

36:34And then we have our blog at learn.pagewheel.com that has a lot of education.

36:40But if you're on Facebook, join our Facebook group.

36:43Because then you're going to also, I do live trainings twice a week in the PageWheel Facebook group where we talk through a lot of this stuff.

36:50And then through PageWheel, we'll also have a blogger group.

36:53So if you want to talk SEO and that's, if you're a member of Pagewheel, it's free. All that kind of stuff.

36:58So it's just a fun, like all things blogging for the PageWheel customers.

37:02So there's an extension on that.

37:04I used to do a lot of blogging coaching and we're moving that into PageWheel.

37:08So it's all under one umbrella.

37:10And then if you have children or you want to just follow, follow along what Holly does on, on all the things is just look at kidsactivitiesblog. com.

37:18And I think one of the things I just want to really emphasize is: like none of this is because I know what I'm doing.

37:27This is all just trial and error. And just doing something every day over many, many years.

37:33I always laugh and say i'm like last vlogger standing which I feel like they're gonna totally give me a trophy for at some point.

37:39It really is just about being persistent in your business, even though A lot of days we don't even know what that looks like.

37:47So, just going in a direction that you're like, ah, okay, I'm going to do this because I don't know what else to do today.

37:53And that opens doors that on the internet that is just like unbelievable.

37:58And it's crazy what you can build if you just, Put a Lego brick in every day,

38:03Crystal WaddellWhoa, look at that.

38:04That monstrosity of beauty.

38:06That's awesome. Holly, thank you so much for coming on the symbols. My SEO show podcast. This has been fantastic.

38:14I can't wait to listen to it again because I've already get, I was getting some ideas, but I'm like, try to stay focused.

38:18So when I listen to it again, I'm going to write down like my ideas and I do an episode

38:23after your episode called follow through Fridays.

38:26Where I try to implement something that I learned from you. So yes, super excited about that. And -

38:31Holly Homeroh my God, I can't wait. Yeah. No. Yeah. Let me know when that goes. I want to hear that one.

38:35Crystal WaddellOkay. For sure. Yeah. So I'll put all your links in the show notes and you know what, maybe one day we'll be able to have you back and just talk even more about whatever else has changed.

38:45Holly HomerThank you so much, Crystal. That's been so much fun.

38:48Crystal WaddellBye guys. Catch you next time.

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