Why Your Customers Don't Check Out with Celeste Gonzalez

0:00Celeste GonzalezThe reason why people pay SEOs is yes to get traffic to their sites.

0:04But they want relevant traffic that will bring them leads.

0:07So, in focusing on user experience, while it's not literally in the definition.

0:12Everything should be for the user. That is SEO.

0:15The examples that I give in that article of these like smaller changes that helped boost conversions.

0:20It wasn't truly just SEO.

0:22Because I wasn't like, oh yeah, this is in Google's guidelines so I should be doing this.

0:25I was just like, okay, let's make this better for a person.

0:29If I was on this site, I wouldn't want to see this. Or I would want to see this.

0:32And so I think it's SEO adjacent because it's not necessarily in one pillar versus the other But it helps.

0:39Crystal WaddellWelcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show. The podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence.

0:54Thank you so much for being here.

0:56Let's jump into another great episode.

0:58welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO Show Podcast podcast. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. And today I'm here with Celeste Gonzalez and oh my goodness.

1:06This lady is so smart and I'm so excited. We're going to be learning from her today and just picking up some new stuff about Microsoft Clarity.

1:14And you know how much I love user experience.

1:16So Celeste, thank you so much for being on the show today.

1:18Celeste GonzalezThank you so much for inviting me, Crystal. I'm very happy to be here and to talk about something that I love and enjoy.

1:24Crystal WaddellSo I see your name come across my LinkedIn feed all the time. So I feel like I know you just because I've seen you and we've connected there.

1:31But could you tell us a little bit about how you even entered into this SEO world?

1:36Celeste GonzalezYeah, definitely. So we talked a little bit earlier about how you were self starting with your Etsy and then turned your Etsy business to Shopify. And that's where you got involved with SEO. And while I didn't have my own business in that sense, I was. a self starter as well with my own blog.

1:53I was in school trying to figure out what the heck I wanted to do with my career and I was really interested in marketing. I heard of SEO and I was like let me just try out my own website and try to rank my blog posts and see. I ended up loving it, doing some freelance work and then landing a job at where I'm at right now at and just have not looked back since.

2:13Crystal WaddellThat's awesome.

2:14So that was going to be my next question is what is rickety roo and the name? Could you tell us like how that happened? Do you know the story of that?

2:21Celeste GonzalezYes. Rikidiru was founded by Blake Denman and Basically, he just rickety roo is a pretty random name. It's fun to say. I love it. But he had got started he was working for an agency previously. And it wasn't going so well. And he was like, okay, bye. I'm getting out of here. And he was like, I'm just gonna start my own company, and let's just call it rickety roo.

2:45And that was the name he ended up, just hitting the ground running with that. And I think the company has been around for, oof. We had like our anniversary recently. It's honestly, I can't even tell you how many years.

2:58This was like in the early 2000s when he established it.

3:01Crystal WaddellOkay.

3:01And so what do you do there?

3:03Celeste GonzalezI'm an SEO strategist and account manager, but I am currently taking over a new department called RooLabs. So I will become the director of that department and it is our SEO testing section of the agency.

3:20Crystal WaddellWow. Congratulations. That's awesome!

3:22Celeste GonzalezThank you.

3:23Crystal WaddellYeah. I read on your profile that you are a lifelong learner. And so that sounds like a perfect, situation for you to move into.

3:31Like testing and learning and being able to apply that. Wow. That's awesome. Congratulations. Congratulations.

3:36Celeste GonzalezThank you so much. Yeah, exactly. I just, there's always something new to learn or something to improve upon.

3:42And I feel like with being part of a testing department, you get to experience that every single day.

3:46Crystal WaddellYeah, and one thing I've noticed about our listeners of the show.

3:50They describe themselves a lot like you, you describe yourself like self starters, lifelong learners, that type of thing. Super cool. I'm glad I knew that there was something that I liked about you, many things.

4:00Also noticed that you have something coming out on Wix and I know it's like a surprise. But this podcast isn't going to come out for, at least a few weeks. So if you can't share, that's absolutely fine, but is there anything that you can share about that exciting news?

4:14Celeste GonzalezHonestly, I, there was a very big contract. So I don't necessarily know how much I'm allowed to I literally had to ask for permission. I was like, Can I make sure I could post this? And Oh, yes, go ahead.

4:24Crystal WaddellOkay.

4:25Celeste GonzalezBut it is supposed to come out sometime this year. There are other SEOs involved. They had posts about it as well, so you will see me. You'll see Aleyda Solis.

4:38And some others in this project that's coming up with Wix.

4:41And, it was a great time, I had a lot of fun working with the team.

4:45And I hope everyone enjoys the project once it comes out.

4:48Crystal WaddellAwesome. I am a huge fan of the Wix Learning Hub because I have a small group, the SEO squad.

4:53We meet every Wednesday.

4:54And I help small business owners With their websites and like troubleshoot different, technical seo things.

4:59And also with content so I have recommended the wix learning hub to them as an amazing resource.

5:06So I'm super excited!

5:07Celeste GonzalezOh, that's awesome.

5:07Crystal WaddellYeah, I

5:08Celeste GonzalezYeah, there's so many great writers on there.

5:10Great place to get started at pretty much every level.

5:13Crystal WaddellYeah, I was like why reinvent the wheel? If someone's out there, creating relevant right now Information that pertains to how to build a website correctly.

5:22I was like, no need for me to go behind him. It's let's just use this and build upon it. So yeah, good stuff over

5:28there. Yeah. Okay.

5:29So another thing that I only learned about because I was on LinkedIn is the group women in tech SEO.

5:35And so

5:36I wondered, like how involved are you with that group? And, what does that mean? for women who want to enter into the technical areas or, I guess the internet world and all of that type of stuff?

5:48Celeste GonzalezSo I have only amazing things to say about the Women in Tech SEO community. When I was first getting started with SEO and I tried to put myself out there I was very fortunate to stumble upon the community on Twitter.

6:00And you can visit their website and sign up to join.

6:04It's completely free. I was able to join their Slack and they have mentorship cohorts.

6:10So I joined and this was, I think, right around the time I started at Rickety Roo, if not right before I accepted a full time position there because I started as a part time hire.

6:22And my mentor was amazing. Lindsay Bailyn.

6:25She was so awesome, in helping me understand how to get started with an SEO career.

6:31Mapping out career goals, things that I would like to learn. How to make goals that were smart and achievable.

6:39They have so many resources. The community is so welcoming and warm. You can ask any question you'd like there. No question is a dumb question.

6:47You will never be shut down for asking something that you might think maybe too elementary for some of these super advanced, accomplished women that are in the group, it's just, perfect.

6:55Like if you are part of that community, if you are a woman in SEO, please go ahead and join and say hello. If you see me there.

7:02Crystal WaddellAwesome. Yeah. I think I might've joined, but honestly I was just a little intimidated. Because I didn't know what to do or how to start off.

7:10So that's really cool to hear. And I'm super excited because I know that. When I went to Brighton SEO last fall you guys were there.

7:17Were you at Brighton SEO?

7:19Celeste GonzalezYes. I was going to say we did not know each other then. We would have met.

7:22Crystal WaddellMaybe this year. Are you going back?

7:24Celeste GonzalezYes.

7:25Crystal WaddellOkay, cool. So I'm going back as well. So I hope to, that I can-

7:27Celeste Gonzalezoh, yay.

7:29Crystal WaddellAnd also take a picture in the group.

7:31Because I saw the big sign women in SEO and I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool.

7:35So and who knows maybe at that time that's when I first learned about the group.

7:39That might have been the situation more than anything.

7:42We're going to be talking about Microsoft Clarity.

7:45And I was just curious.

7:47If before we jump into a whole bunch of different terms and words and definitions.

7:52What do you think is one thing that, someone could do today for their website?

7:57That would have the most impact?

7:59Celeste GonzalezIt's going to sound very simple. But it's something that I notice a lot in looking at client sites.

8:05So I work with mainly local businesses small businesses.

8:09When they edit their sites, they're typically only looking at the desktop version and That means when you go ahead and visit the site on mobile, things might look a little different.

8:20They might be a little arranged differently, not arranged the best maybe things are moved around in a different way than they expected how it to look compared to how it is on desktop.

8:30So I would say. Make sure to visit each page on desktop and on mobile and see how it looks to a user.

8:36And don't waste your space above the fold.

8:40If most of your visitors are visiting on mobile, that what they see on the screen when they first load the page is super important.

8:48So make sure all the important information that a user wants to see that's important to them is there.

8:54And they don't need to scroll all the way to the bottom to find it.

8:57Crystal WaddellAnd that's awesome because I was going to say, Ooh, could we define above the fold? Just in case someone hadn't heard of that.

9:02Cause it's from like old school marketing, right? Where a folded newspaper.

9:06Celeste GonzalezYep.

9:06Crystal Waddellyeah.

9:07Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And gosh, I can't remember who I was talking.

9:09I think it was Sarah Presh who we were talking about the next billion users of the internet.

9:13And the fact that a lot of those new users will be accessing the internet for the first time on a cell phone or mobile phone.

9:21I think that is such great advice.

9:22We are going to talk about some things that maybe aren't so simple.

9:26They're more of the smart side of SEO.

9:28You had an article that was on the Wix website.

9:32"Get more from your SEO by improving UX and conversions."

9:36And I love user experience.

9:39Maybe we could break down some of those terms before we even talk about Microsoft Clarity.

9:44So can you tell me when you say get more from your SEO, what type of SEO are we talking about here?

9:51Celeste Gonzalezit's more so so it's in a general sense, but it's more so from your content with SEO.

9:56It's more sure it's more that pillar that we are focusing on. Because it has to do with, just like I had mentioned earlier with making sure the important content is above the fold.

10:06You're doing all this great work on your pages.

10:07You're making sure that your headers are broken down easily for someone to skim the page and know what it's about.

10:15And it's like you're putting in this effort here. But. You're not getting conversions.

10:19And there's a reason for that. There's something missing there. That is what's meant by the headline.

10:25Crystal WaddellOkay. So what's really crazy here is that when I first started learning about SEO.

10:30I was like, Oh, this is amazing.

10:31I can get people to my website? That type of thing. And then I started getting people to my website. And Oh, this is amazing. I should be like a millionaire.

10:37No.

10:38And so that's when I learned about user experience.

10:41And so that was like a huge aha for me.

10:44Because it was like, Oh, it's not just about driving traffic. There's other things that have to happen.

10:49Cause if your person can't check out or doesn't understand what they're doing, all that work is for nothing, right?

10:55Celeste GonzalezYeah, exactly.

10:56You have them land there and then they're like, okay, why am I here?

10:58Nevermind. Goodbye.

11:00And then it's oh my God, I just lost that customer.

11:02Crystal WaddellExactly. Okay.

11:03What I think is also very cool and I haven't been able to really dive into.

11:07That you can actually watch your customers engage with your website through a tool like Microsoft Clarity.

11:13These little tiny tools here and there for all the marketing that small businesses have to do, they add up.

11:18What is the cost to the user?

11:20Celeste GonzalezSo, Microsoft Clarity is free.

11:23It is a completely free tool.

11:25So if you were using Wix, let's just say.

11:27There's like other platforms as well.

11:29Think Shopify is like already integrated with it. So you can just go through on Shopify, go through on Wix, and there's easy instructions on how to get it installed.

11:36But if you have something like WordPress, you can go ahead and use Google tag manager.

11:40And it's The instructions are very clear, very easy to set up. It does not have to involve you don't need to code if you don't want to or you don't know how.

11:47Crystal WaddellCan I ask just a quick follow up there?

11:49In your opinion, if say a CMS like Wix or Shopify has a special place for you to put a special code, say, from Microsoft Clarity.

11:57Is it better to do that than to copy the code and put it in somewhere else like you would for a WordPress site?

12:04Celeste GonzalezHonestly, I'm going to say what works for you and what's not going to give you a headache, go ahead and do it that way.

12:10I'm definitely not like a master coder or anything like that.

12:13So I love using tag manager for everything.

12:15But I've used sites that have Wix and just will use the easy integration that way, and you're still getting the same data.

12:22Crystal WaddellOkay, awesome.

12:23And then you talked about this term that I love.

12:26You said SEO adjacent. Yeah. So what does SEO adjacency, how does that benefit our websites and conversions and all that type of thing?

12:35Celeste GonzalezSo you definitely touched on it by saying, you were like, Oh my gosh, I learned about SEO. And now I'm driving traffic and I'm bringing people my page.

12:42You just think SEO, you think of the three pillars, the content, the technical and links. Yeah.

12:48And you're like, awesome. I have some links to my site.

12:50Perfect. I have content about like the products that I'm selling.

12:54And maybe some blog posts that are about the products.

12:57And technically this site is like fine. There's no issues there. It's fast.

13:01But with SEO adjacent, while it's not literally the definition of okay, with SEO, you need to bring traffic to your site.

13:09And you need to Make sure you're getting as many conversions. Because then you're getting into conversion rate optimization.

13:15That's a whole nother beast. I call like Microsoft Clarity and SEO adjacent tool because.

13:20The reason why people pay SEOs is yes to get traffic to their sites.

13:24But they want relevant traffic that will bring them leads.

13:28So, in focusing on user experience, while it's not literally in the definition, everything should be for the user that is SEO.

13:36But on, The examples that I give in that article of these like smaller changes that helped boost conversions.

13:42It's not truly conversion rate optimization because I wasn't doing any of the crazy math or A B testing that they do.

13:48But it wasn't truly just SEO. Because I wasn't like, oh yeah, this is in Google's guidelines so I should be doing this.

13:54I was just like, okay, let's make this better for a person. If I was on this site, I wouldn't want to see this or I would want to see this.

14:01And so I think it's SEO adjacent because it's not necessarily in one pillar versus the other But it helps.

14:07Crystal WaddellYeah. And what's crazy. I had never heard of the three SEO pillars before. I've never heard it described like that.

14:14Celeste GonzalezOh, really? Yeah, I don't know. I know Who else refers to it?

14:18As I think debbie chiu she's on the wix seo hub.

14:21She's called it like the three pillars. I feel like i've seen it on Ahrefs as well.

14:26I've seen a few times and she's oh, those are the three main things or pillars. Or You Whatever you'd like to call it.

14:31Crystal WaddellCan you say them one more time?

14:33Celeste GonzalezYes. So the three main pillars of SEO: content links and technical SEO.

14:40Crystal Waddelllove that because the reason why it's such a like aha for me.

14:44Is because I always Split up like on page off page or on side or off side.

14:50I'll never know what to call it.

14:51But I never included links, and I knew that links were apart, but I thought links were adjacent You know what?

14:58Celeste GonzalezYeah.

14:58Crystal WaddellSo I love the thought of, okay.

15:00All of these things fall under content.

15:03All of these things fall under links.

15:05And all of these things fall under technical. That's genius. Ha!

15:11Celeste GonzalezThat's okay, these are the three spots that they're in and that's it. But that's why something like Microsoft Clarity is adjacent. Because it doesn't, necessarily.

15:18It could fall under, all three.

15:20Of those pillars. Potentially.

15:22Like based on what you're looking at and what opportunities.

15:25Crystal WaddellYeah, thank you for that.

15:26Because as a teacher who teaches others.

15:29I love finding like the most simple way to break things down.

15:32Sometimes it could just get be a jumbled mess, because they do criss cross in their adjacency or whatever.

15:37Celeste GonzalezDefinitely.

15:38Crystal WaddellOkay, so I have heard about a tool called Hotjar.

15:42And it seems like it's similar to Clarity and ironically, I have both installed on my Shopify store.

15:49The free version, but it really limits, what it records.

15:52And so are they the same type of product?

15:55Celeste GonzalezYes. So they are very similar. Hot jar.

16:00It's not a tool that I've personally worked with. A lot of people that I've consulted with when I've been going through like my clarity projects that I've been doing, they're like, Oh, this is just like hot jar.

16:08But yeah, you don't have to pay, which is awesome.

16:11And you get access to all your data. I'd say with hot jar, I know that more like CROs, conversion rate optimization, like specialists use it.

16:21But you're getting heat maps, you're getting scroll depth you're getting to see session recordings on both tools.

16:29Crystal WaddellYeah, that is so neat.

16:30Okay, I guess we should just start with the first one I remember. What is scroll depth?

16:35Celeste GonzalezYeah, so scroll depth is the percentage.

16:39Clarity will show you the percentage of how far a user or users are scrolling down on the page.

16:46When you first load up Clarity, like you'll just see. The data in general, and you'll get an average. So like for the past three days, 30 days, seven days.

16:54You can see the average scroll depth of your site, and it could be, 30 percent, it could be 40 percent.

16:59If you see lower percentages, don't be scared because people are definitely not scrolling all the way down for the most part.

17:04People just want to get their information quickly and go.

17:08But then you can filter and look at a specific page and see how far people are scrolling down on that page.

17:15And then maybe you might see that the percentage is a little bit higher when you look at it that way.

17:18Crystal WaddellAwesome. So one of the things that I like to tell people is I, I want to democratize SEO, and just make sure that all entrepreneurs have access to this information of like how the internet works.

17:30And so this is something that You know, an entrepreneur might think, okay, this is great, but I don't really have time to do it.

17:36And, sometimes I'll train a staff member or VA in these practices or whatever for the entrepreneur or super small business.

17:44But if you're trying to do it yourself.

17:47Are there certain metrics that you should focus on above others?

17:51Celeste GonzalezSo with Microsoft Clarity they have their own general metrics.

17:55So they have the sessions, the scroll depth. Active time spent on a page, dead clicks, rage clicks.

18:01JavaScript errors quick backs, things like that. I would say that scroll depth is an important metric that I would keep an eye out for.

18:10And I would make decisions based on that. And I would use it in combination with the heat maps or session recordings that you have access to in Clarity.

18:21To make a decision to see where you should be placing certain content on a page.

18:26Crystal WaddellSo that reminds me of the second part of the question I want to ask is how often should someone be doing these things?

18:32Celeste GonzalezSo I think that you should first, so when you install clarity on the site, give it time to gather data. Don't just let it like, don't just install it and wait a week and be like, Oh my God, I need to change all these things. Would give it at least a month. I would try to give it longer, especially because maybe there's Seasonality that affects it.

18:54Let's just say you sell products that are for like, I don't know, Christmas lights or something like, okay, during busy season, you definitely want to use all that data.

19:01Maybe if you're selling Christmas lights and it's April, there's not going to be that much to work with. So make sure that you have enough data to make a decision.

19:10And if you are a smaller website, I would say, wait for three months of data. Just because massive websites that are like enterprise level that are getting, you know, 20, 000 sessions a day, very different from a site that's getting maybe 5, 000 in a month.

19:27Crystal WaddellYeah, for sure.

19:29And you just hit on something that was so crazy.

19:31So you said you were talking about seasonality.

19:33And one of the issues I had with hot jar with Shopify was that my business is seasonal. I sell gifts for athletes.

19:40I make giant numbers or maybe senior photo props.

19:43I work with a lot of senior photographers, but my main business is called collage and wood. And so data from one particular month to another is not necessarily, a relevant comparison. You know what I mean? Like I need to do like March, 2023 versus March, 2022 even.

20:00So I really like that about Microsoft Clarity that you can have all of this data and you're not limited because that's what Hotjar has done.

20:10It's just too limited for what comparisons I need. And so I think that's really neat.

20:16Celeste GonzalezI will say, Clarity is a free tool. There are limitations on it. So like with the session recordings, you do only have access to them for 30 days. So if you know your busy season is March, you can mark a recording, let's just say you're going through March 2024 data. You want to compare it in the future.

20:35If you see any recordings that kind of stand out, or maybe it's pretty average for March, you can mark it as a favorite. And then anything that's any of the recordings that are marked in your favorites will stay in your clarity dashboard for 13 months. But everything else will go away after 30 days.

20:53Crystal WaddellCan you export it to a Google Sheet?

20:55Celeste GonzalezI know you can save the links and you can send them.

20:58So let's say if you had this installed on a client site, you can send them the link to that recording. But I don't recall if you can export things to a sheet.

21:06Crystal WaddellI always tell people, look, if you hear about. A data tool like Google Search Console or Google Analytics or now even Microsoft Clarity. It's go ahead and install it because like you said You need about three months and by the time most entrepreneurs realize that they need data to make decisions.

21:24They don't have it.

21:25So then they have to wait another three to six months, you know until they can gather data.

21:30And so I love that advice like even if you think you're not ready for it Maybe go ahead and try to install it or get some help doing it because when you are ready for it You want to be able to make your moves forward?

21:42Celeste GonzalezExactly. Perfect way to put it.

21:44I've had clients where they're just like we're not in a position to focus on this yet because we have like really big content problems.

21:49Or really huge technical problems. And it's yep, we do not have the time right now to focus on this. But we'll install it now.

21:57And, in three to six months, when those issues are resolved we can revisit and it's boom.

22:03We already have lots of data to work with. We have a good starting off point.

22:07Crystal WaddellYeah, i'm joking that I have this never ending to do list.

22:10i'm actually going to make it like a file that people can download.

22:13But that would be Something that should go on the top of the never ending to do list of install it.

22:18And then check on it should go at the bottom. So I love that. I think that's really a fun idea.

22:23Microsoft Clarity is a Microsoft product, and Google Analytics and that type of stuff is a Google product.

22:29Do they work together?

22:30Celeste GonzalezYeah, so you can in Microsoft Clarity connect your GA4 account. And you can see that data along with the data that Microsoft Clarity collects as well.

22:43Crystal WaddellAwesome.

22:43Okay, so we did talk about this a little bit, like what Clarity measures that would be helpful to small business owners.

22:50And you mentioned the scroll depth. Is there anything else that, you know not just small business owners. I need to be more specific, like solo entrepreneurs.

22:57People with limited time. Any other stats that maybe would be at the top of the list?

23:02Celeste GonzalezI really like looking at So I would say like there are three: dead clicks, rage clicks, and quickbacks. So I'll go over the definition of each of those. So like dead clicks is when someone thinks something is clickable on your site, but it isn't. So they're clicking it and nothing happens and they're just like, whoa, what is going on here?

23:22Rage clicks. That is when a person is clicking or tapping if they're on mobile, like multiple times in one spot. So Oh my gosh, why isn't this loading or what's going on here? Why isn't this like reacting?

23:33So it's just like a bunch of clicks in a designated area. And then quick backs. That's when a person maybe clicks a link on one of your sites, they get to the page and they're like, Oh, this is not what I want.

23:45And then they go back immediately. they're quickly going back.

23:48Crystal WaddellThat is so funny because I had never heard of dead clicks before.

23:52And that was on my list to ask you about because i'd heard about rage clicks and rage clicks Just thinking about it always makes me laugh But then I also thought about oh my gosh, there's been times where I totally get the dead click thing as well You It's like, why can't I click on this picture?

24:06Celeste GonzalezYes, exactly. Yeah, just like a picture. It's oh, I want to zoom in and see this product. But, oh, never mind. I can't because I can't click on this for some reason. Or maybe some words are, like, highlighted on a page. So you think oh, this might be a link. It's not a link. You're clicking and it's going nowhere.

24:21And that can be frustrating for users.

24:23Crystal WaddellYeah. Why is it blue and underlined? If it's not, you can't click on it.

24:27Why is it underlined at all? You also mentioned a heat map.

24:30Celeste GonzalezYes.

24:31Crystal Waddellthe benefit of seeing a heat map and what do you pay attention to?

24:34Celeste GonzalezWith heat maps, you can look at specific pages on your site and see where people are clicking. So instead of the recordings, you'll get to see Oh, this red section right here means that lots of people are clicking.

24:51And this blue section means Oh, maybe there's a couple clicks here and there.

24:54And with clarity, like they'll label it from like number one. Like on this section, we'll show you like where it is the most clicked on.

25:02And then like number 10 will be like the least amount of clicks.

25:05On places that are clicked on the page. So this just lets, are people actually clicking on the internal links that you're placing on the page? Or are people using this part of the navigation?

25:16Are people clicking on the photos? It's just letting you know what people are interacting with.

25:21So you can see a click heat map. You can also see a scroll heat map. Just like we talked about that scroll depth. You'll get to see. Obviously red is where people are scrolling, like everyone's there.

25:32And then it will get cooler until you get to a super dark blue, which means it's the least popular.

25:36People are not scrolling here. Users are not reaching this point.

25:40Crystal WaddellWow, man, this just is so magical because it's like all of the things that you do. Okay. in SEO to optimize is like now measurable by tools like these.

25:49It was like a missing link, very important missing link. Like, how do we know this is working? Okay. Now we know if it's working.

25:56Celeste GonzalezYep. Yeah, it's like now let's actually see what users are seeing. And how they're interacting with the work that we've just produced.

26:03Crystal WaddellYes, exactly.

26:04So I didn't want to get ahead of myself, but another SEO adjacent term that I love is user journeys. And customer journeys.

26:13So is, do you think that a tool like Microsoft Clarity can help you clarify that journey on your website?

26:19Or is that another way that it can be used?

26:21Celeste GonzalezIt definitely can.

26:23This is where we'll have to get into a little bit of code, so I'm sorry if you're groaning at that right now.

26:28I had mentioned, you can install Clarity very easy with like simple integrations with things like Wix, Shopify.

26:34Or, through Tag Manager if you're on WordPress or something like that.

26:37There are extra insights you can get if you install a piece of code on articles. So these are only for like blog posts. They're called content insights and they will let you know the types of readers you have on your website.

26:52So they break it down by one and done readers. So these are people that just Get to that blog post.

26:56They read it. They're out of there. Casual readers and serious readers are the other two categories.

27:02So it's just letting you know their article engagement. One and done, obviously just one article casual.

27:08It's like maybe they visited two or three articles on the site.

27:12And then serious, like they were going through and they read more than three articles on your website.

27:17And that kind of helps understand the user journey.

27:19Because you're getting to see okay, are people really here just to get in and get out with their information? Or are internal links working? Because you can go ahead and look at these sessions.

27:29And see if your internal linking structure is helping lead users to these next articles.

27:34Crystal WaddellMan, I bet somebody is probably doing it.

27:36But I would love to do research on that particular code.

27:41Just as a, like an overview of all of the blogs that have this code installed.

27:48What types of readers are most prevalent? You know what I mean? Or least prevalent?

27:53I just, I think that would be really interesting to know what the majority of readers, what category they fall into.

27:59Celeste GonzalezYeah, and it's really gonna just vary depending on the website type.

28:03And, the page that they land on.

28:05Is it a page that's meant to lead people other places? Or is this just, could be a blog post where it's literally just like about the company. Maybe that's not really going to lead someone somewhere.

28:13It's more so just like to let them know what's going on there.

28:17And like this only works for the blog posts. So these sessions are just only telling you if they're visiting another article. Or two more articles.

28:26But you can go ahead and watch session recordings and see, because maybe from the blog posts that they end up on a different page on the website.

28:31So they might be categorized as like a one and done.

28:35But because of how the code works, if they end up on another page, like while they're categorized as a one and done reader.

28:42They wouldn't be like a one and done user on the site because they did visit a different page.

28:47Crystal WaddellGotcha.

28:47And if, are you able to identify, say, a person who checked out and purchased a certain product? Are you able to isolate that person? what they did on your site.

28:57Celeste GonzalezAs in see their-?

28:59So they do have what are they called?

29:00Smart events.

29:02So clarity will go ahead and automatically set up events for you that they think are like key to your website.

29:11You can also add your own in. So if you were an e commerce site, they will definitely add adding to cart, shop, like things like that would fall under your smart events.

29:21And you can capture just those users in the category. Let's just say add to cart and go ahead and look at those session recordings heat maps.

29:28Things like that.

29:29Crystal WaddellOoh. Okay. I know what I'm doing with my free time.

29:32Celeste GonzalezOn just using it for e commerce. That's not the area that I'm have the most experience in.

29:37But like in the clarity documentation, they have e commerce insights and a lot more documentation on how to go about those.

29:45Crystal WaddellYeah, that's super cool because a lot of people have expressed, dislike and disdain for GA4.

29:51But as an e commerce seller, there are some cool things in there that's like little trees that lead to other little trees that show you how people navigate.

30:00And so I just think that's so interesting.

30:02Like I said, the customer journey and the user experience is so important to me.

30:06To watch a recording session sometimes feels a little like intimate and weird.

30:10Because I can't see the person, but I could see what they're doing. So I'm like, this is weird, but it is neat to see the journey that they take and think, okay, how can I make it better?

30:19Celeste GonzalezYeah, no, definitely. So I just pulled it up just to clarify there because I've not done this before. on my own. So with the special e commerce insights with Clarity.

30:28There is a purchases feature. So this is only available on Shopify sites. They have a checkout abandonment feature, which is also on the Shopify sites only.

30:38And then product information filters.

30:41So you will get like on your dashboard, a card that is your most viewed products.

30:46And for that, It is only available for sites that use product JSON LD.

30:50Crystal WaddellOkay.

30:51Which shopify does, right?

30:53Celeste GonzalezI believe so. Yes. If you're on Shopify, you will get these cards. But the documentation is all on LearnMicrosoft. com.

31:00And you can see more about the e commerce insights and how to, use them to your advantage.

31:07Crystal WaddellYeah, I'm excited because I took my own advice.

31:10My friend Favour last year Mentioned Microsoft Clarity and I thought oh, this is really cool, but I didn't have time to learn about it or know anything.

31:17So I followed the instructions. I hope I followed them correctly. I'm not sure that I did Listening to you talk.

31:22But crystal gave it her, you know best shot so i'm excited to jump in there and see if I have any data in anything that I can use.

31:30But really quickly going back to the whole, it's weird to watch somebody over their shoulder. It feels, like weird because do we have permission to do that?

31:38Is that do we have to worry about getting in trouble for installing something like this?

31:42Celeste GonzalezMake sure your privacy policy, like statements are updated and you're following proper data collection laws with stuff like that, with that.

31:51Like the GDPR and, California has, strict laws on that. So. Making sure that you're like terms of terms and conditions, terms of service, privacy policy, you're mentioning that this data is being collected.

32:04Crystal WaddellYeah. It's funny too. I just have to mention I think, I don't know if it's in my terms of service or what, but I use really plain language sometimes.

32:11And instead of the like jargony, I've used the templates and modify, but every once in a while I just put in like XYZ happens, so I just think it's funny.

32:19So I'm going to, I'll probably put something like that and make sure that I have it in my terms and conditions.

32:24Celeste GonzalezI had very plain language and I tried to use the template I'm like, oh my gosh, I hope someone doesn't sue me.

32:28So just make sure you're covered on all ends there I am NOT like the expert on the laws with GDPR or like the specific, California consumer protections.

32:39But please let people know that you are collecting this data at the very least.

32:43Crystal WaddellFor sure. Okay. And then you mentioned you had an example of bad user experience and it was, it's, I don't know if it's Zara or Zara.

32:52Celeste GonzalezZara. com, yes. That is the bane of my existence.

32:55Crystal WaddellTell me about that because I thought that was so interesting.

32:58Celeste GonzalezI like Zara. I used to shop there. And their website is just really frustrating as a user. And anyone I've talked to, they've also said that it's very frustrating. So in the article I literally just went on Twitter and I looked up Zara website. And all of it is just people complaining about how it is so dumb.

33:15So with them. Usually when you're using like a website to shop, you're going to swipe on images to see the next one. On the Zara website, if you swipe, it takes you to the next product.

33:30So it's Oh my gosh, I gotta swipe back and get back to that product. And instead of swiping, you need to scroll down to see the rest of the photos.

33:39And, users are not trained for that. On usual sites, you're swiping. If you click on an image, you're swiping on the image to see. So it's incredibly frustrating because most sites are not built that way. Users are trained to swipe versus scroll. So that's what lots of people were complaining about on Twitter and just people that I know in real life that have shopped there.

33:58Crystal WaddellWow. That's so interesting because, honestly, I took away something different and, What you're saying makes so much sense. And I've talked about this before with my group and just, in other conversations that you're not just competing with the people you think you're competing with.

34:12You're also competing with previous experiences.

34:16Because it's like, yeah, if people are used to doing something a certain way and your way is weird.

34:21That's not gonna work out very well, probably, or as well as it could, maybe.

34:25Celeste GonzalezYeah, exactly. And it's if there's a justification for doing things differently, By all means, go ahead and try it. But this is something that people have been complaining about for a while. So it was like perfect. So I was like, I was already gonna write this article, and I was like, Oh my gosh, great, I gotta talk about this example that really bothers me.

34:41As a user. And I obviously do not have access to Zara's Clarity data if they have Clarity installed. But.

34:48Based on people talking about how frustrating their site is, I could assume that they'd likely have a lot of quick backs because people are used to swiping.

34:56So they swipe to the next product instead of photo, and they're like, whoa, this is not what I was looking for.

35:01So then they have to click back into the original product they were trying to see.

35:05Crystal WaddellYeah. And the whole swiping thing, I had heard something about this on mobile, in terms of swiping, from side to side versus up and down. And that's what I thought you were talking about, but this makes even more sense. I'm like, oh my gosh, how have they not fixed that?

35:19Celeste GonzalezYep. Yeah. It's just, I don't know, there's so many complaints, but I've just, I've never seen them change anything.

35:25Crystal WaddellThey need you. They need you. And then you can just take commissions.

35:28Celeste GonzalezOh gosh. I would love that.

35:29Crystal WaddellOkay.

35:29Thank you so much for your time today. I don't know if you can tell, but I'm super excited about all that you've shared. One of the hardest things for me to figure out on my own is tracking changes.

35:41And I noticed in your article you said, Hey, just make sure that you keep track of this. So you know what you did. And if I drop a ball anywhere, it's there. It's I like to implement right away, but I don't track right away.

35:52So do you have any tips or thoughts on tracking these changes that we make on our websites?

35:57Celeste GonzalezI think you have to do it in the way that's going to make the most sense for you. And what you're going to stick with.

36:02I think if it's a spreadsheet and you're going ahead and writing a spreadsheet okay, on June 7th, I moved this call to action button above the fold.

36:11And you know you're going to check back on the spreadsheet and you'll be like, oh yeah, I implemented this June 7th, so I'll come back and check on my data next month, like a little bit after the 7th.

36:20Like July 9th or something, let's just say.

36:23If it's a spreadsheet that's going to work for you in tracking what changes you are making and when, go ahead and use a spreadsheet.

36:29If you need to write it on a sticky note and put it on your desk, go ahead and do that. Just make sure that you are documenting this because then you can see what happened based on the changes that you made.

36:41You want to make sure you can see the impact of that, whether it's positive or negative.

36:45You want to be able to be like, wait a minute, I'm getting like more people to click on this button now. And it's because, You know what, I'm going to assume because I changed the button just not too long ago.

36:55Or it could be something not so good. It's oh my gosh, people are not visiting this page anymore. And it's because, you know what, I did this thing last month.

37:02And let me revert the changes and see what happened.

37:05Crystal WaddellAwesome. Yeah. And that's what I was wondering. Okay, what are we measuring with that button? But you just said it, are we getting more clicks and different things. So awesome.

37:13That seems simple enough. And I think I could follow up with that. I have a show every week called follow through Fridays.

37:19And so I try to do something that, an expert such as yourself shares and says is important. I try to implement that. So I'm I'm like in over my head right now, but I'm going to choose one of these things.

37:29Celeste GonzalezOh, that's awesome. That's so exciting.

37:31Crystal WaddellSo if people connected with you today and love what you had to say, or, want to follow you, learn more about you.

37:38What is the best way for them to do that?

37:40Celeste GonzalezYeah, they can if they're on Twitter, they can go ahead and connect with me there.

37:45My handle is CelesteXLili. And Lili is spelled L I L I.

37:49Or on LinkedIn. And I'm just Celeste Gonzalez on there.

37:54Crystal WaddellOkay, awesome. So I'll put links to both of those in the show notes.

37:58And then I'll also link to this article where I, found. this information in the first place of you writing about Microsoft Clarity.

38:05And so if you want to check that out, just check, in the show notes and you'll find all of the links there.

38:10So Celeste, thank you so much for being here today.

38:14Celeste GonzalezThank you so much for having me. It was awesome talking to you, Crystal.

38:16Crystal WaddellOh same.

38:18All right, I'll see you next time. And thanks so much for tuning in.

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