The Truth About SEO and Pinterest Search in 2024 w/Kate Ahl

0:00The digital marketing world, every year that we go forward, you have to realize nobody's ever done this before.

0:07No one's ever run a digital business in the midst of AI.

0:10And I remember, post pandemic, beginning recession talk.

0:15It's if I see one person talk about how to navigate a recession on the back of a pandemic, I'm going to snap something.

0:22Because they don't know what they're doing.

0:23None of us know what we're doing.

0:25And the biggest thing is that we all have to be honest about where we're at, what we're learning and how we're learning it.

0:31If we're vulnerable to talk about those learning lessons. We help somebody else who has an aha moment.

0:38But I think it's so frustrating to hear the people who want to be experts in something that nobody can be an expert in yet.

0:46Welcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show, the podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO.

0:53I'm your host, Crystal Waddell.

0:55I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence.

1:02Thank you so much for being here.

1:03Let's jump into another great episode

1:05All right, guys, welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO Show Podcast.

1:10Woo. I have to take a deep breath here.

1:11Because I am with Kate all the founder and CEO of Simple Pin Media. And also she has started an agency and a whole different side of her business. I think it's KateAhl.com.

1:23But Kate, welcome to the show.

1:25And maybe if I messed that up, could you tighten it up for me?

1:28No, that was right on.

1:30Started Simple Pin Media and then launched into Kate Ahl.

1:33As just a way to share my story. Cause I knew other people were running their agencies and trying to bumble their way through. So I figured I've got 10 years of wisdom.

1:43Why not pass it on?

1:45Yeah.

1:45And I was telling you before we started recording that I was actually in one of your agency groups before you changed the name.

1:53I'll definitely link to it in the show notes.

1:55But I wanted to tell you, I, at that time, I don't know, was it 2020?

1:59I can't remember.

2:00But at that time I'd been spending a lot of time on clubhouse and I was talking about Pinterest and people were like. Oh, wow.

2:08So it really flipped a switch in me. And I would present every Thursday in this little room.

2:13And then someone said, Hey, can you do my Pinterest for me?

2:16And she's probably listening to this right now.

2:17So I wanted to get into Pinterest management and your course came available right then.

2:23And I implemented it from start to finish. Like I used a little bit different email service provider.

2:29I had my system set up and it was it was seamless and it was awesome.

2:33But unfortunately Pinterest kept changing so much. I was like, I can't do this.

2:38But I do want to say props to you because that was a great program.

2:41Yeah. Thank you for that too. And I think what I've learned since then too, is just to take that framework and help apply it to anybody who's a service provider.

2:50But I agree. Pinterest changes every like 10 days. And it makes you want to pull your hair out. So I totally get it.

2:57Yeah. This was a time when idea pins were first coming out and there's so many questions.

3:02And I'm encouraging people to do things and all of a sudden it like disappear. I gotta stop.

3:06Yep. It was maddening.

3:08Okay, I've been listening to your Pinterest podcast for so long. And I wanted to know how you came up with that intro, the Pinterest advice that goes down smooth and easy, because it reminds me of something my dad used to play when I was a kid.

3:22Yeah, that is so funny because no one's asked me about it in a long time. So I love this. It was actually my husband because I had come out with-

3:31I was working with a coach at the time and there was a previous Pinterest podcast that was just getting lift.

3:37But that host was taking a break because she needed to step back for family reasons.

3:42And my coach knew this kind of insider information. And when it was going to stop. And he was like, you need a podcast.

3:48And so he said, you're going to have to figure out the music, you're going to have to figure out the intro.

3:53And at the time, I want to say it was 2016. And there were not a lot of podcasts out there.

3:58There was a lot of people who were doing voiceovers at the time.

4:01Which right now you don't hear that as much anymore.

4:05And so I came up with this one and I went out and I had my husband listen to it.

4:09And he was like, no, that sounds like the indigo girls.

4:13It sounds too girly, like no way. And so he's like, I'm going to do this.

4:18He ended up writing the Pinterest for business advice that comes down smooth and easy.

4:22He's like, I want this voice. I want this sound. It'll be so good.

4:26And so I found a guy on Fiverr.

4:29And he ended up whipping it for me.

4:31And my husband was like, yes, that is it. So that's really how it came about.

4:36And then, there's been a few times over the years that I thought, maybe I should change it.

4:39Maybe it's just do away with it. And people were like, no, you've got to keep it.

4:43Yeah. Cause that gets my attention. If I ever have a podcast queued up and then that music comes on, I'm like, Oh, yes. Okay.

4:50Here we go.

4:51Oh my gosh. I love it. Thank you for that reminder that it's still there. Cause I just record like this and I rarely listened back to my podcast.

4:58And a lot of that is just time, but also it's hard for me to listen to my voice sometimes.

5:04But no, I appreciate that you brought that up.

5:06Yeah, and that was also really neat that your coach had the insider information.

5:10Because it's just a reminder that sometimes we just have to make ourselves available.

5:15And then the opportunities come.

5:17And it's just a matter of timing and luck.

5:18Just being in the position to be available.

5:21So that was cool.

5:22Yeah, for sure.

5:22Okay.

5:24So in previous discussions, you mentioned one of my favorite words, which is leverage.

5:29Because I talk SEO. I have an SEO small group where we meet every Wednesday and we talk SEO concepts for just all websites.

5:38And you are the first person that I've heard say you should leverage what you do on Pinterest for your business.

5:46And so I just wondered if you could expound on that. And share what you meant by that.

5:50Yeah. A lot of people, I think we take this whole social media marketing or digital marketing in like pieces and parts.

5:57Instead of really seeing it truly as a lever that you pull.

6:01That your main site, your main business model is really this hub in the middle of spokes, right?

6:07And so when we choose to leverage a platform, we have to make that intentional decision.

6:12And that word just resonated with me.

6:15Instead of, Oh, we're just going to use Instagram.

6:18And we're going to see it as this standalone thing.

6:20Or we're going to use Pinterest and it's a standalone thing.

6:23No, it's a lever that you pull that really brings everything to the central part of your business.

6:28It's not like, somebody just puts up a billboard locally and it's Oh, I'm just going to put up a billboard and hope everybody sees me.

6:35But it is a tool to get them back to the in person location. And so I just used it, I think, unintentionally.

6:43Probably because that's the way that I saw it. And so I thought everybody else needs to recognize that it is this extension that brings people back in.

6:53Yeah, absolutely.

6:54I have this saying give every channel a job. Or everything that you do.

6:58Whether it's a page on your website.

6:59Or, Instagram, social media, LinkedIn, whatever.

7:02Give it a job, especially if you're a solopreneur and you can't do everything.

7:07Just give it a job.

7:08And then, like you said, leverage that as you would a person in that position.

7:13And another thing that sometimes people don't realize about Pinterest is that when you leverage Pinterest, you're also leveraging their domain authority.

7:22And so a lot of smaller businesses, they don't have a very high domain authority.

7:26It goes, from zero to a hundred.

7:28And so small businesses typically fall under 15.

7:31Pinterest is up in the seventies or eighties.

7:34So there's a lot of times we can become more competitive with a particular keyword if we use it on Pinterest versus on our site.

7:41And show up in the search results. So that was something I found. And I was like, Oh, this is amazing.

7:46So different than the rest, which is refreshing.

7:50It is, except for the pin that keeps coming back around.

7:54Yes. The pin that never dies.

7:56Yes. The one of one of my very first pieces of artwork. And I'm like, wow, I can't believe that thing is still alive.

8:03Okay. So another thing just along that line of leveraging Pinterest is the concept of unbranded search.

8:11And I feel like this has been such a catalyst for my own business because I sell wooden letters and numbers.

8:18And I ship them all over and we're working on marquee letters and stuff.

8:22It's something I found in Google search console that I didn't even know people were looking for.

8:26And it's just crazy. So I'm like, what is an unbranded search and what makes it so powerful for small businesses who might be unknown or even a little bit known?

8:36Yeah. I love that too.

8:37And what Pinterest says is that 97 percent of searches are unbranded. So people are going with a keyword rather than going with a brand.

8:45So when I use the example that when we go onto Instagram, we're looking for this engagement piece.

8:51Like a common phrase that I have is Pinterest is the library. And instagram is the bar.

8:56And so people are looking for who they know. They're looking for connection. They're searching. I will search on Instagram for people all the time.

9:04But when I go to Pinterest, I'm very much interested in what is going to serve me.

9:09So the pinner switches from searching for a brand to searching for a particular product like yours, wooden letters for a baby nursery or wooden letters for the house.

9:19And it, they don't even care who the brand is. So what this does, and an example that we use is we have a custom tile maker.

9:27So they're making custom tile for people. They're making handmade tile. They're competing with Home Depot and Lowe's.

9:34And these big box stores.

9:36But people aren't necessarily going onto Pinterest to search Home Depot tile. They're going to Home Depot for that, but they're going for Pinterest for something unique and different.

9:46So it gives this handmade seller, an opportunity to compete on the level of a really big business.

9:53And I think that's the advantage that small sellers who might be unknown, if they're really good at their keyword game.

10:00They can get in front of those people in those searches.

10:03And that's what I love is it levels the playing field.

10:06Yeah, I love that too. It really helped my business.

10:10And making the switch to talk about SEO was so simple because it's very similar. It's almost the exact same thing.

10:17When you're looking for keywords on Google, you would look first in the search bar.

10:21You don't even need a special tool.

10:22You just need to look and see what keywords are related to what you're selling.

10:26And you do the same on Pinterest.

10:28So it was really natural for me to go from Pinterest to SEO.

10:32But I have to ask you a question about Pinterest.

10:35What happened to the shop tab?

10:37Yeah.

10:37So that went away.

10:38And a lot of people were really worried about it.

10:40But really it was just a profile feature.

10:43That when you went onto your profile, you could find the shop tab and see all your products are saved.

10:47I think what they realized is that because of the unbranded search, not a lot of people come to profiles.

10:55So they're not like seeking you out.

10:56Instead of if they are on your website, they click on the Pinterest link, they come to your profile.

11:02So they just found that it wasn't really an advantageous tab that was needed.

11:06So they just took it out. But all the features of the shop of the verified merchant program, they're all still there.

11:12Okay, great. It does say you are a member of the Verified Merchant Program, but I'm like, the Shop tab's gone. What do I do?

11:18I know, it's more annoying because we can't find our stuff easily, but it's still there.

11:23So you just alluded to it, but how would you describe search intent on Pinterest?

11:28Because that's such an important concept.

11:30A lot of people, they think, Oh, I've got a lot of traffic to my website. Woo.

11:34But if they're not looking for what you sell or it's not related, how valuable is it?

11:40How would you describe search intent on Pinterest and what strategies can businesses use to leverage that?

11:47So the search intent is all based on keywords.

11:49With SEO, there's so much like crossover between that and Pinterest. It's just, SEO and Google have way better tools than Pinterest does.

11:58To really target in with that keyword.

12:00And so what we tell people is that you want to look at what is already being searched on Pinterest. What the keywords are there.

12:07And then there's a trends tool that people can use to see like when the searches are at their highest.

12:13And because Pinterest users are planners, the search intent happens so far before an event. Or when you're going to do something.

12:22That it's really trying to get your content into the pipeline when they're searching.

12:27Not when they're ready to buy.

12:29And so we want to leverage keywords in board names, board descriptions, pin titles, pin descriptions.

12:36Anywhere you can fill out like a field, go for it. That is really for the search algorithm. It's not for the person.

12:44The images are for the person on Pinterest.

12:46Because they're not primed to read. They're primed to just look at the image, decide what it is, if they want to click or save.

12:53And then move on.

12:54That process happens so quickly. So then if you're really intent about the keywords that you're targeting on Pinterest, it's going to be much easier for you to end up in either a search feed when somebody searched the particular term.

13:07Or, end up in their interests. If Pinterest knows this particular user is interested in what they're looking Wooden letters for their nursery.

13:15It's going to look at your content.

13:17Both products and content.

13:19And say, Oh, this has wooden letters for a baby nursery.

13:23We're going to start putting that into their home feed to see if they're interested.

13:27Yeah, that is so awesome. And again, it's that parallel with SEO.

13:32That you want to get that content out early.

13:34Three months or whatever, let it get some momentum, before the heavy search time.

13:40And that was that lesson from you and, just, being on Pinterest for so long.

13:45It was so helpful transitioning into SEO.

13:48So I just think it's interesting how similar they are.

13:51And I'm just so grateful for that because it made SEO so seamless, I, I guess that's probably why it seems so easy to me and other people think it's hard.

13:59But if you use Pinterest, you can really. Use what you've learned on Pinterest to navigate SEO.

14:06I have these Easter letters. They're giant and they go on a backdrop. And this year I had it on my calendar make sure.

14:12That you start in, whatever month it was January, I think promoting, and I.

14:18Sometimes Shopify doesn't give direct attribution to Pinterest.

14:24Because I know so many people come from Pinterest. And my business is very personal, so I can just ask people like, Hey, where'd you see me? And if they remember, they usually say Pinterest.

14:34And you said that the images are really important and that was another thing that I realized in e commerce, like people don't read.

14:41Like the text is for the computers, to read, but a lot of times people will swipe, the images.

14:47And that's where you can put kind of your FAQs or important texts or whatever. And I didn't fully make that connection until you just said that.

14:55So yeah. Okay.

14:57Can you share a process for ideating Pinterest content for local businesses?

15:04And particularly, I'm thinking about like a senior photographer or like a dog trainer.

15:11Can they be successful on Pinterest?

15:13Yeah, that's always our gray area. That's one of the things that if a client came to us, I would say you have to be able to work with people nationally.

15:23I wouldn't say so much globally, but I would definitely say nationally. So if you're willing to travel as a photographer, which we see that a lot with weddings.

15:31Is that a lot of people will save a lot of their time and effort.

15:34Portraits or they'll save a lot of posing, all those kinds of things. I'll find that.

15:38You want to really leverage the place that you're in by using, I'm in Portland. So I would use photographer in Portland, best places to take pictures, take senior pictures in Portland.

15:49And I would showcase that. But it is going to be a little bit of a harder lift.

15:53We definitely see local businesses getting more play off of Instagram, Yelp, or even Facebook sometimes just because it really targets local, like you can follow local people.

16:04And for some reason, a lot of that stuff shows up.

16:07Like Instagram is good at knowing I'm in Portland. So I'll see things that are Portland creators.

16:13So with Pinterest, what I would tell people is that I would put probably three to six months of effort into it.

16:19I would definitely have your profile optimized. I would make sure that you have location and everything.

16:25And an easy way to connect with you and come to your website and book.

16:29That is one of the biggest things that I see is that for some reason, a lot of local businesses don't optimize their site for user experience.

16:38Like it's really clunky to move through.

16:41I was looking at one actually yesterday. I think it was It's actually a wedding site.

16:46For some reason I had happened upon it.

16:48And I thought, I don't know what I'm looking at and it's hard on your phone.

16:52So if there's some way to really capture them quickly at the top so I don't have to scroll, I mean I had to scroll a long way down.

16:59And so that's, I mean I think that's just good website 101 tips.

17:03But I think local businesses have an extra layer that a content creator or a product seller doesn't have.

17:11So it is good. I would try it. I would invest in it.

17:15But I would definitely do it for six months. Evaluate how it's going and if it's getting the return that you want.

17:21If not, just leave your profile there. You have all, let's say your photographer, you have all your stuff up there. People can see it and find it.

17:27That's a win right there as opposed to not using it at all.

17:31Yeah. Oh my gosh. I totally agree. And that tip about location...

17:35I've never put Fayetteville, North Carolina, because I do ship globally, definitely nationally.

17:41But rarely do I do business locally. Just now with the marquee letters.

17:45But so that location is so key and so smart. So I definitely will share it with the dog trainer and the photographer.

17:53And then the comment about user experience.

17:55That has been one of the most difficult things to convey to people.

17:59Because, SEO is really only the first step.

18:03Like you're telling people about you, but that's like the front side of the coin.

18:07And then the backside of the coin is, can they navigate to complete whatever it was that attracted them to you?

18:15And one of the big mistakes that I think I was in the ad society for a little bit.

18:21One thing that I found out was I was running an ad for photo props for like senior photo props.

18:26Oh, okay.

18:27But it would go to my homepage.

18:29Which, I also sell senior night gifts, for different sports seasons. So it just didn't align.

18:35And that was when. It seems like it should be so simple.

18:39But that's when I learned, make sure the pin leads to the product that is in the pin.

18:44Yes, a hundred percent in that the experience because somebody's only looking at the image and they're not reading.

18:51They're essentially coming to your website for more context.

18:54It's Oh, they've, you've piqued my interest on Pinterest.

18:57Now I'm ready to learn more.

18:59So walking them through that whole journey to where then they do want to then do business with you.

19:05And I think having somebody else look at it or a colleague or whatever.

19:10Because we're so close to our product, it's really hard for us to see stuff.

19:14So asking for somebody else to give you their feedback or even people in your community.

19:19Like giving them a 25 Amazon gift card that says, Hey, can you take 10 minutes to look at my site and just give me any feedback of what you would change.

19:27Is so valuable.

19:28Oh, 100%.

19:30I did that with a photographer last year.

19:32And in my small group, I've been encouraging them to do the same.

19:36And sometimes in a hot seat, I might do it for someone.

19:39But yeah it's a shame to work that hard to get the traffic there.

19:44And then not be able to convert it. Because you didn't do something that you could actually control.

19:49Yep.

19:50Yeah that really stood out to me.

19:52Okay, so another thing I heard you talking about with someone else, I can't remember who it was, but it was the fact that Pinterest ads and promoted pins aren't the same thing?

20:03Yeah, I know. This is crazy.

20:05So I have to admit, this was about, I don't know, six or seven months ago, Erin, who is my ads director.

20:11We were talking and some question came through in our marketing meeting from somebody about promoted pins and Pinterest ads.

20:18And our customer service rep was like, yeah, I just told him it was the same thing.

20:22And Erin's like, it's not the same thing.

20:23And then we were like, what?

20:25So somewhere along the way, Pinterest started to extract the terminology.

20:29And a promoted pin would be when you hit promote on a pin. You'll see that button. It's a very quick and easy way.

20:37In fact, I did it after that. I was like, okay, how easy is it?

20:41Let me try it. Let's see if it's effective. It's a very much a high level, get you over the fear of ads type of thing.

20:47So I did it. I only ran it for a month.

20:50I did a dollar a day just to see what it would do. And I got some interesting data back about like clicking. And who was clicking.

20:58It was interesting.

20:59A Pinterest ad you can build from scratch. So you're not taking an existing pin. Which is a promoted pin.

21:05You're building your ad. You're saying I'm going to specifically create a new image. I'm going to target this group of people.

21:13I'm going to use these keywords in my description and then I will launch this particular ad.

21:19And then go deeper and deeper into targeting and all those kinds of things.

21:22So if you're just super easy, Go with a promoted pin and just try it. But still that same thing we just talked about remains.

21:30You want to make sure the connection from the ad to the page is a really seamless.

21:35Yeah. Especially because you're spending money.

21:37I have no idea how much money I spent sending an ad to the wrong product.

21:43It makes so much sense because I remember there's been times where I've clicked on like it must have been promote a pin and it was so easy.

21:50And then when I was in ad society, you actually learned how to set up the backend.

21:54And I never really thought about it, but now I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, that was the difference, so...

22:01yeah,

22:01and promoting a pin sounds like boosting a post.

22:05Yes.

22:06Like on Facebook or Instagram. Okay.

22:09So is it effective? Cause a lot of times people will say, do not boost a post. On Facebook or Instagram.

22:16Yeah.

22:16So one of the things I like to challenge myself with is that in the last 10, I've done Pinterest for 11 years now.

22:22So there's been a lot of, I've seen things come and go, I've seen fads come and go.

22:28And I always want to be somebody who challenges my norms. Okay.

22:31So one of the norm that the norms that I found I had was that it was like a boosted post. It didn't work.

22:37Or you don't want to run a Pinterest ad or a promoted pin for traffic.

22:41So I thought I'll call myself on that and I'll try it.

22:44So we did the promoted pin in the fall and it was specifically to see if we could get email signups, but I didn't set it up all that well.

22:52So we took a pause and then I said, let's do a section of time where we do a promoted pin just for traffic.

22:58Does it really work? And does it really make an effective change in our business? So we're mid process in that right now.

23:04I think we're like six to eight weeks and we've gotten a lot of clicks and we're spending right around 2 a day.

23:10So really cheap. And so we, what we want to see from there is, we're not necessarily doing it convert to an email, but we definitely have tracking set up to where we can see it.

23:20But then we're a gauging, we'll turn it off and we'll see, okay, did it increase our traffic or did it not increase our traffic?

23:25Right now, I want to be somebody who communicates to my audience if I'm wrong or if I'm right.

23:32And there's a lot of hacks, especially when Google makes an update.

23:36People who have had Pinterest in the past will flock back to it. So it's very much this teeter totter effect.

23:43Where the helpful content update comes out and people are like, Oh my gosh, I need to diversify or oh my word, I need to go back to Pinterest.

23:51Pinterest does idea pins and people feel super confused by it.

23:54And they go, Oh my gosh, I need to go back to SEO.

23:57So with that being said, we're in a moment right now where people are coming back to Pinterest and they're trying to be oriented to it again.

24:05And so in that orientation, I want to be like, try this or don't try this, or I've tried this.

24:10In fact, I was at a conference.

24:12We sponsored a conference last weekend and I told somebody who had listened to my podcast for a while.

24:16I said, I know I'm not always right.

24:19But if you come to me and you say, here's what my data tells me and it's counter to what I say, trust the data.

24:27Don't trust me. Because if you're doing your due diligence to look at your own data story, trust that hands down over what I say.

24:35But don't trust the Facebook post of somebody else's data.

24:40That's what I want people to avoid.

24:42Yeah. Have your own experience versus trying to replicate theirs or whatever.

24:47I'm realizing how much I have learned from you over the years.

24:51Because the first time I heard the acronym UTM was from you.

24:56Or someone on your team. And then I remember the podcast you did on it.

25:00I was laughing. Sometimes I just laugh when you're doing stuff because I'm like, that's so me too. I'm like, I don't even want to deal with that.

25:07But I'll try, you know.

25:08Yes.

25:08So that's when I realized, Oh, you can track pins and you can track different things. And, because we don't, as entrepreneurs, we don't go to some sort of digital business school.

25:17It's you're just picking up the little pieces everywhere. And it's that's how people know, what's happening or whatever.

25:23And then the other thing, which is probably one of the catalysts for me shifting into SEO.

25:29Was, I remember you had a screenshot our search console.

25:33And that was something I never really dove into.

25:36I don't want to say delve because that's such an AI word. I can't stand it anymore.

25:40Yes, totally.

25:41But it's something that I never explored until you presented it. And it was just like, huh.

25:48And just the light bulb went off.

25:50The data tells that story. And sometimes I think to your point, like you're right.

25:54The digital marketing world, every year that we go forward, you have to realize nobody's ever done this before.

26:01No one's ever run a digital business in the midst of AI.

26:05And I remember, post pandemic, beginning recession talk.

26:10It's if I see one person talk about how to navigate a recession on the back of a pandemic, I'm going to snap something.

26:17Because they don't know what they're doing.

26:18None of us know what we're doing.

26:20And the biggest thing is that we all have to be honest about where we're at, what we're learning and how we're learning it.

26:26If we're vulnerable to talk about those learning lessons. We help somebody else who has an aha moment.

26:33But I think it's so frustrating to hear the people who want to be experts in something that nobody can be an expert in yet.

26:41That is such critical thinking. And I hadn't even really thought about it because I just, I'm naive in that way.

26:46I just assume people know what they're talking about or that they're telling me the truth.

26:51Right?

26:51It wasn't until this year that I've been talking to, different entrepreneurs where they're telling me these expose stories or whatever.

26:59It's those ads that you see on Instagram, they don't really, make seven figures. And I'm thinking, what?

27:04I'm like you too. I have exactly that way.

27:07But I will say I have loved following you because you are just so real.

27:12And it was in The Empowered Agency Owner Podcast.

27:16You said that it was a little bit harder to find your voice.

27:20As a new business owner in your second business.

27:23And I resonated with that so much.

27:26Because as you're learning and as you're finding out okay how do I want to do this?

27:30That is so important.

27:32I was just wondering was there anything you did to pry that out of yourself?

27:35Yeah, I think one of the biggest things was just giving myself a wide pasture to roam in, if you will.

27:42Of recording the podcast and knowing-

27:46I think what I had learned from growing Simple Pin is that I watched other people's success too closely.

27:52I interrogated it. I looked at it.

27:55I compared myself to it.

27:56And I have a common phrase that I learned during that time that I say to myself is don't chase somebody else's success.

28:02That's not my story. That's not my business model. And so I had to get out of my head a lot.

28:09So then when I came over to the Empowered Agency Podcast and Kate Ahl, I said.

28:14The thing that's most important to me right now is that women who are running an agency would be able to hear the stories.

28:23To hear the lessons, to hear the wisdom so that they too could create an agency that works for them.

28:29Cause what I saw was there was a lot of men teaching in the agency industry.

28:34Which is totally fine.

28:36But women run agencies different. And that's what I had learned with having, I have one male contractor on my team on Simple Pin.

28:44But for the most part, it's women leadership.

28:46We've been figuring out how to do this, but we're also navigating a family.

28:50And my COO, Leslie said something interesting a couple of years ago as we were wrestling through all the Pinterest changes and all these things.

28:59And we were listening to some agency leadership podcasts that were run by men.

29:03And she said, what's so different is that our lives are constantly changing all the time.

29:10Like our kids lives are changing. We're being interrupted all the time. Most often, and I wouldn't say always.

29:17A man has the ability to work a nine to five straight through.

29:21I don't know the last time I've worked a nine to five straight through.

29:23It's probably when I'm traveling and I'm not around anybody.

29:27And I can get it done.

29:28But for the most part like, yesterday, like both of my daughters had doctor's appointments.

29:33And I had all these other things. I'm working in my bed at 3pm.

29:37And then I'm making dinner at five.

29:39Like these things were just so variable to me and I didn't feel like they were speaking to what women were really struggling with and what they were balancing.

29:49And so going into that, it was like, how do I pass on, what's worked for me?

29:53And I had a group that I was a part of, Entrepreneurs Organization.

29:57And it completely transformed the way I share my story.

30:01Because you can't in EO, you can't share advice. It's like you, that's absolutely off the table.

30:07You can only share experiences.

30:09If you have an experience with something, you're allowed to share that experience.

30:13Good or bad or whatever it is.

30:15And that in somebody hearing your experience, they will take away a piece of wisdom.

30:21And they will see it in their own story and they will either do it or not do it.

30:24But when we come with ideas that have never been tested and tried, we lead people down a path that doesn't work for them.

30:33I don't know if you've ever been in a group with five or six women, like a mastermind.

30:37And everybody's saying, you should do this and you should do this.

30:39I think of tons of great ideas for other people.

30:42Would I want to do it myself? Probably not.

30:45And so I think the gatekeeping, that's how I found my voice.

30:49Was really to say, this is important to me to share my experience.

30:53So that a woman listening on the other side can say, Oh yeah, that works for me.

30:59Or. Oh no, I wouldn't do that.

31:00Or that's a good pitfall to avoid or something like that.

31:03And so from there, I've given myself the freedom.

31:06I don't do blog posts with my podcasts. But I absolutely know that I should, I don't optimize for SEO.

31:12I know that I should.

31:13I know all these things.

31:14But I let go of all of that and just said, my voice is the most important thing to learn.

31:20And I can go back and I can do blog posts for all of those podcasts.

31:24I can do all of that.

31:26But I can't go back and relearn the voice that needs to be there. So it's super cathartic for me.

31:32I'll say it's almost like business therapy, being able to record it each week.

31:36Oh my gosh. It's like business therapy for all of us who listen!

31:39So thank you for that. Because I remember you were probably the one who gave me that permission.

31:45You know how, when you're in business and you don't know what you're doing, especially online.

31:49Although I never thought about it the way you said.

31:52Nobody's ever been here before. And that's so liberating.

31:55But you gave the permission to say, Hey, your business doesn't have to look like someone else's business.

32:01Because the ads that are feeding me are like you need a digital course.

32:05Yes I do. Okay. So let me get a digital course.

32:08And. I will tell you the good thing about that experience is that I was able to take away a lot of technical knowledge.

32:15That I didn't understand about how the internet worked, like landing pages, I had always dealt with product pages or, whatever, something like that, or a blog page.

32:23But I never heard it called a landing page.

32:25And it took me a while to kind of see how those two things were related or whatever. So I, from that experience, I loved it. But then the next thing was like, you need a membership.

32:34And I'm like, that's it, so then I do that.

32:36And, again, I picked up some stuff, but you're exactly right.

32:40It's we need to assimilate what makes sense for us in our lives and just discard the rest without feeling like we're doing something wrong.

32:50So yeah, I just, I want to say thank you for that because you have just been a consistent source of that kind of comfort.

33:00Thank you. That's good to hear. I actually just wrote myself a note. I was like, okay, I've got some ideas along those lines. So thank you for some ideas too.

33:08And happy to share my experience and just pass it on to you.

33:13I know we're winding down here. I love that you love to share, because that's why I started this podcast.

33:19Because it's so powerful to have these conversations, and I never thought that I would be talking to Kate Ahl, so I'm very grateful for that.

33:27But I'm also grateful for all of the listeners on the other side that are hearing this conversation.

33:33And they're able to take away something from it.

33:35There was two things you said recently in your podcast that I really loved and.

33:42You were talking about just that discussion of having enough space.

33:46And I think you just really broke it down, as you were describing, a woman's life.

33:51Really being able to be honest with yourself and say, it's not that I'm not superwoman.

33:56It's not that I'm not great at what I do. It's just, there's not enough space in my life to accomplish everything.

34:02Which then frees us up to find the most important things.

34:06Yeah, a hundred percent. And I actually have to chuckle because I wrote an email last Monday to my Simple Pin list and I was sitting there at the table.

34:18I was literally there for an hour. I'm like, why does this feel so hard? I love to write.

34:22The written form of communication and podcasting is like my jam.

34:26And so I wrote about that.

34:28I said, I've been sitting here for an hour.

34:31And the reason that there's a tension is that I know that when you listen to business advice or you read an email, like that time is precious.

34:40And so here's when I think I was on my second cold. I had COVID and then I had another cold. And my daughter's graduating. And then I'll have another daughter graduating next year.

34:50And so all these things, I was like, here's the five things I do to try to just keep balance. Like it's not rocket science.

34:57It's just the things I've learned. And it was these five tips that I gave.

35:01And what was interesting. is the response I got back.

35:05Like I sent it out and our customer service person gets all the responses and she was like, Kate, there's a lot coming in.

35:11Like people needed to hear this.

35:13And it was really interesting because it was really nothing about Pinterest.

35:16It was not going to give them a tip for Pinterest marketing. It was just like, I'm in this with you. I get it.

35:22Especially as we've seen the creator economy shift so much.

35:26There's conversations about, and I would lump in creator with product seller too.

35:30Because there's such a shift happening right now with the way that Google distributes our content.

35:36With Tik Tok, disrupting search with AI.

35:39And it's exhausting. Like it's not easy to keep up with it.

35:44So sometimes you just have to go back to the basics to say, here's what's going to get us through this week.

35:49Cause sometimes you need advice like that.

35:51I don't need to know a seven figure launch.

35:53I just need to know how to get through today.

35:55Absolutely.

35:56Okay, on that note, because trust me, I have a lot more that I could ask you about.

36:02But could you tell people if they have resonated with what you've talked about today.

36:07How they can get in contact with you or the best place to find more about you?

36:13Yeah, I would say right off the bat. I have the two podcasts. So the Simple Pin Podcast, you can listen to the great intro.

36:19And then The Empowered Agency Podcast, which is more seasonal, it's more episodic.

36:24So it's on season eight, there's 10 episodes per season. That's the empowered agency podcast.

36:30Just go listen to those.

36:32And then there'll be call to actions in there to sign up for our email list or whatever it is.

36:37But wherever you're at. If you want to go down the road of Pinterest, listen to the Simple Pin Podcast.

36:42If you are an agency owner, service provider, or VA.

36:46I just think being a service provider in a VA, we are in a whole different bucket than a course creator.

36:52And it's really easy to take course creator, membership creator advice.

36:57But that's not our business.

36:59We have a different business. So those are the two ways you can connect with me.

37:03Man, I love that so much!

37:04Just having the clarity to know, that's not my business. So it's okay. I don't have to implement that advice.

37:10It has been such a pleasure. This time has flown, but thank you so much, Kate, for coming on today.

37:17I know people are going to love it. And I love it and I'm just so grateful for you.

37:21Thank you so much for having me and I'm grateful that you stumbled upon simple pin pro and you've iterated on your business and here we are today.

37:29So kudos to you as well.

37:31Yeah. Thank you. All right, guys. See you next time.

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