The Intersection Of SEO and User Experience with Ola King

0:00Ola KingAll this happens in real time, by the way.

0:01You're like, Oh, okay. I'll play this song.

0:03I wonder how they feel about it.

0:04That's your prototype. You're testing. If they like it, you let the song play.

0:08If they don't like it. You switch to something else.

0:11And if that works, then you execute. You actually then go full on.

0:15And then you measure.

0:16It's okay, the last time I played at this club, this happened. This is the amount of drinks that was sold. This is the music that was playing.

0:23You start looking at all these things.

0:25Down to the light. Like, when I have the light at this color, at this level. People dance more than this.

0:31Design thinking is everywhere. Everywhere. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

0:36Crystal WaddellThat is so

0:37true.

0:37Welcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO show, the podcast dedicated to empathy driven brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence. Thank you so much for being here.

0:54Let's jump into another great episode.

0:56Hello there, my friend. Welcome back to the simple and smart SEO show.

1:00I am here with Ola King today. We are going to have an amazing conversation. That I'm super excited about.

1:08Because you know how much I love user experience and the intersection of SEO.

1:12And if you didn't know, you're going to find out today how much I love it.

1:15So I'm so excited to welcome Ola to the show.

1:18Ola, thank you so much for being here.

1:20How are you today?

1:22Ola KingI am great.

1:23It's 8 a. m. I'm not a morning person anymore, but it's good. I feel energized. So that's a great thing.

1:30Crystal WaddellYeah, it's good to know when you're most effective.

1:32For years, I tried to be the person that would work after my family went to sleep.

1:38And it just completely ruined everything for me. I was always tired the next day. I was never really efficient.

1:45What I found is if I can get up at five or six in the morning, I am more efficient from that period of 5 a. m. to 9 a. m. than I am the rest of the day.

1:56It's all downhill after that.

1:58Ola KingPretty cool.

1:59Last night before I went to bed, I actually had the thoughts that maybe I am not a morning person because of my story I tell myself, so I don't know what came first.

2:07Is it the morning person came first or the story?

2:09So I'm going to try to change my story and see if my behavior or changes with it. So that's an experiment. I'll run.

2:18Crystal WaddellYeah,

2:19one of my goals for 2024 is to truly run my business the way that I've wanted to run my business. And that means working in the mornings and then taking the afternoons off.

2:30Or at least having that afternoon time for myself and my family and, just things that I want to do.

2:37So that's going to be my big experiment. So we'll have to check in with each other and see how it goes.

2:42Ola KingYeah, that sounds good. That should be fun. There are no rules. You make your own rules.

2:46Crystal WaddellI love it. I love it.

2:48So we were talking right before we got started. A little bit about your journey.

2:52And how you moved as a 17 year old young man, moved all by yourself to Canada with no friends or family.

3:01And just took on life. And I wondered if you could start us there with your story.

3:08Ola KingYeah, it was more like 17 year old boy.

3:10Like at 17 I looked very tiny. I looked like I was 12 probably.

3:15But yeah, I moved I moved from Nigeria to Canada.

3:19I do have a cousin in Calgary. Which was a different province from where I eventually went where I initially went in Canada.

3:27Which was Newfoundland.

3:28So Newfoundland is in the east coast of Canada.

3:31Fun fact, it's the most eastern point in all of North America. And Calgary is on the west side.

3:37So extreme ends of Canada. And Canada is a big country, just like the United States.

3:43So I didn't actually see my cousin for seven years or so.

3:47So yeah, I I had to make my own friends. My own family in Newfoundland.

3:51I like to say I went there knowing no one. But by the time I left there was like 2, 000 people that were my family. And it shifts who I am a lot, like it's allowed me to be very adaptable and yeah.

4:02Crystal WaddellAwesome.

4:03I also want to give credit to Ola today.

4:05Because my son Asher is 11 and I couldn't imagine him leaving for university at 17 in another country. And he said what was it you said, Ola, that your mother was very confident in you.

4:19And so I thought, wow, what a message, like I'm going to choose to be confident in my son.

4:25Versus afraid of what the world has to offer him.

4:28So thank you for being such a great living testimony of having no fear and total confidence.

4:35Ola KingNo worries.

4:35I just realized last week that my mom is probably the most optimistic human I've ever met.

4:41The house could be burning. She would find some way to turn it into something good.

4:46So yeah, that's who I am. And I guess that was an example of that mindset. Of, even if it doesn't work out, we'll find you find a way.

4:55Crystal WaddellWow. That's a powerful start in Canada there. So then what happened?

4:59You went to university and you graduated. Did you start in SEO right away? Or... what happened next?

5:05Ola KingYeah.

5:06What happened was I could not have scripted my career path.

5:10I could not have scripted it, but at the same time, in a long enough span, everything made sense.

5:15Before I left Nigeria, I finished high school at 16. And I didn't know what I wanted to do.

5:21While I was deciding, I bought a bunch of softwares music, software Photoshop Maya Autodesk, Maya, yeah, for 3d animations.

5:31So I I was just trying a bunch of things, just experimenting. I got good at Photoshop. I got good at music production.

5:37Maya I was terrible at because I'm not an artist in the natural sense. But yeah, I was just always playing with those softwares. And that was who I was.

5:46I became a music producer in a way. Yeah, I was not good at first, but I got good.

5:52A lot of the people I used to work with actually back in those days are some of the biggest acts in Afrobeats music right now.

5:58So it's crazy to see how that turned out.

6:01But yeah, so that was what I was doing before I left Nigeria. Now, when I went to Canada I was still doing music.

6:07That was what I was just, doing after class, just to pass time. And I got known that way.

6:13So I would post my music on Facebook. I was very shameless about promoting.

6:18I would tag everyone that I knew might be remotely interested. They were probably annoyed at the time.

6:23But sorry! I would never do that now, of course, 17 year old, very eager to share your work.

6:28And then I guess people will see, Oh, who was this guy. And then I got known in the music community.

6:33As a producer. And I would be making beats for people.

6:37And Newfoundland was boring. There was nothing to do. What everyone did was drink. And go to clubs. And I was 17.

6:46The legal age was 19. So I could not go to clubs.

6:49So at the time I was like, how can I get to the club?

6:52What can I do to get into club? Because I was young. Then I tried fake ID. It works, but I knew the bouncer was skeptical.

6:59As I was leaving one day, I saw the DJ. He looked just as young as me. He was an older guy, but it looked just as young as me.

7:07Then I had a crazy idea. I was like, I wonder if anyone actually IDs the DJ?

7:11So I would send my mixtapes and stuff to club managers.

7:15And I got hired at a club. And I started DJing.

7:19And just like my hypothesis was, no one ID'd the DJ. So I was a 17 year old kid, or at that time, 18, that was in the club. I wasn't supposed to be in the club.

7:29I was DJing.

7:29I was able to make some income that way. And it wasn't mostly for money, though.

7:33It was just for entertainment and also socializing.

7:37And yeah, I became known as this producer DJ. And I used the DJ to promote my music.

7:43I'll play what they like, and then I put these things that they don't know.

7:46And sometimes just beats. I would make mashups, and I started posting that on YouTube.

7:51I'll post mashups of music on YouTube and I didn't know this was SEO at the time.

7:55That's why I said it doesn't make sense, but it makes sense. I didn't know this was SEO at the time.

7:59But I would find what other people are doing and try to reverse engineer it. I would listen to what's going on in the pop culture.

8:07Let's say, Beyonce has a new album coming up.

8:10So I will try to guess what the title might be.

8:13And then I'll upload onto YouTube, use the title, use Hot New Beyonce 20 2009 or something like that, and yeah, they were getting views, my, I had two channels, one for my beats and one for my mashups.

8:26They were getting like over a million views at a time.

8:29I didn't know what I was doing. I was just, hustling.

8:32Wow.

8:32That was great. And I got invited into AdSense at the time. YouTube started making money.

8:38But then they released the I don't remember the name of the software but the software that identifies, for copyright DMCA.

8:45So they were able to see that, mashups. It wasn't my original song.

8:49And I didn't know how to go about that at the time.

8:52I was a broke university student. I didn't even have, a way to pay for a lawyer to figure out how that works.

8:58So I just gave up. So the channel still exists somewhere, but I just gave it up.

9:02But so that was that.

9:03And then I was studying computer science in school.

9:07And as I was walking through the university center, I would see all these posters. Of events.

9:13That no one looked at.

9:14Even I didn't look at it. Because I was always on my phone.

9:17But it was part of what I noticed every time.

9:20So that was me, my experience as a student.

9:22And then on the weekend, I will be hosting events. As a DJ, I had to host my own events as well because.

9:28You just make more money that way. So I started doing that and I noticed that it was hard to promote your event.

9:37So on one end, you can't promote your event.

9:39On the other end, where you are, where people traditionally promote events, students are not even paying attention.

9:45They're on their phone. So at this time, there was already iPhone.

9:49There was already GPS based apps. So, I got an idea to create an app. To promote events that are happening nearby.

9:59So I had no idea how to do this. I had the idea.

10:02I didn't feel as passionate about doing it.

10:06Because I wasn't sure.

10:07I didn't have a blueprint. No one that looked like me had done it. No one around me was doing it.

10:11I didn't know how that process worked.

10:14Then I was looking for a part time job at the time.

10:17I was going through the interview processes like at banks and there was this particular bank.

10:23I went through five steps of stages of the interview. And I ended up not getting the job and they actually didn't inform me.

10:31Like I was just waiting back for two weeks.

10:33I was like, Oh I was supposed to hear back from you.

10:35They're like, Oh, sorry. We went with another candidate.

10:37And I was just like, Oh, okay. I was so upset.

10:42And I just went home that day. I told my girlfriend, I don't want to have to deal with this process again.

10:48I'm just going to start my own company. Very naive. I was like, I'm just going to start my own company.

10:53And that very night I brought out- I had a book where I write my ideas. And I just like, okay, what am I going to work on?

11:01Then I was like, oh, this one. Then I just started drawing the mockups. I didn't even know what mockups were called at the time.

11:06All I know is the first vision. So I drew that. I think I mentioned it to a friend. And then a friend said, oh, he knows someone who is a UI designer. I should show him. And then I showed him. And then he was like, oh, this is good.

11:19Let's do a mockup. Like a more. Low fi version.

11:23And then he helped me that. And then I was like, okay, this is good. And I showed someone else. And then someone was like, oh, there's this speech competition that you should go pitch it.

11:31So that's how it evolved. It was just like I share what I have. And then, people help me develop it.

11:37I'm honest.

11:38Like I don't know this. And then someone will say, Oh, I know this guy. I know this person. And either they give me advice. Or point me to the resources or they help me themselves.

11:47I was a computer science student, but I wasn't the best programmer because I just didn't have the patience for the details.

11:53So I found one of my friends who was obsessed with programming.

11:58He became my co founder. And then gradually, before I knew it. I had five people on my team with me building this thing.

12:06And I was very shy. I mentioned I was a DJ.

12:09But as a DJ, I never even addressed the crowd. I always had an emcee with me.

12:13So I was always just the guy behind the board. I was too shy to look at the crowd. I just wanted to create. I was more of a producer. I wasn't a performer at the time.

12:23But when I was creating the company, everyone on the team were either too junior.

12:27Or they didn't know as much about the idea, or my co founder, he was too technical.

12:32He just didn't want to speak with people. And we needed to pitch this business because we had started spending money on server costs. And stuff like that.

12:40So Yeah, I had to pitch the business. And I was not a public speaker. It was not in my vision at all, but I had to do it. And the first time was a disaster. But just like anything else, you fail.

12:54You get feedback, you apply it. And then eventually just became part of who I am.

12:59And the company eventually failed.

13:01But through the connections that I made during that time. I ended up working for another company in that ecosystem.

13:09And that was really how my career started.

13:11So I told them, what do you need help with? And they mentioned, Oh we need someone in support.

13:16And I realized that when I was getting my company, the reason it failed was because we didn't talk to customers.

13:22We knew nothing about customers.

13:24We were I don't know how to put this nicely.

13:27We were too confident in our ability to know what they wanted.

13:33And yeah, that backfired. Yeah.

13:36So when I ended up joining the new company, I wanted to be closer to the customers.

13:41So I told him whatever problems you have on your customer team, let me know. I'll help you with that. And then I was on the customer team. I did everything from support and then like account manager type of role and then education.

13:54And this was a social media marketing company or two. So we were dealing with marketers. And in the process, I got to understand how marketers think. How they work, their world.

14:06And I got passionate.

14:08But from a customer team, you can't solve the problems. You're just. Taking the feedback. So I started thinking I wanted to move to product.

14:15But then moved to Vancouver.

14:18I knew I would start a company eventually again.

14:20But I I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I started thinking I should. Find skills that will be useful to me. And I figured organic marketing would be useful.

14:29So Moz was looking for someone on their CS team and I wanted to know more about SEO.

14:35So I joined Moz, that's how I got into SEO.

14:38Crystal WaddellWow. That is so crazy. I've never had a conversation with someone who actually was in a UX position at some point.

14:46And even though you only talked about it from like your founder perspective. Like knowing that you actually created low fidelity designs.

14:54That's so interesting because I took the Google class.

14:58I'm still in the midst of it right now of become a UX designer. And that's where I fell in love with design thinking.

15:04And I had heard of it for the first time. And that comment you made about not talking to your customers.

15:10That is so common in just in businesses in general.

15:15It's interesting how we feel like, Oh, we've got this great idea.

15:19And we know it's a great idea.

15:20And it probably is a great idea, but how people perceive it. Or how they want it presented to them is so important as well.

15:28And so I think it's just such a great point to make. I know people even now that they'll change their websites.

15:33They already have customers and they'll change their websites.

15:37Spending lots and lots of money without speaking to their customers in the process.

15:42It just seems like you learned so much in such a short period of time that it could almost encompass a career just in your startup experience till your time at

15:52Ola KingMoz.

15:53Yeah, I had imposter syndrome initially. When people talk about how long they've done this, they've done that.

15:59But then, people who knew me, who were part of my life in that era. They saw how much I learned. They saw how much I grew. I sold my video games. I got off social media and everything.

16:11Literally, my entire life was the business. I didn't do anything entertaining.

16:15I wasn't hanging out with my friends.

16:16If you have eight hours a day normally.

16:19I was using my 24 hours on this thing.

16:21So if I spent five years, in reality, it was more like 15 years of experience that normal people would have.

16:28Cause that was literally what I was doing. I was dreaming of the business all the time.

16:31Crystal WaddellWhat was it like being a user researcher at Moz? Because that sounds like my dream job.

16:37And I just want to know what it was like on a day to day basis.

16:41Like what you worked on. What the projects were like.

16:44Could you just give us a short synopsis of what it might look like to walk in your shoes for a day?

16:50Ola KingYeah. So I had a very strange role at Mars because the way I got into UX was also just, I was on the customer team. Like I said, I already knew that customer teams don't solve the problems.

17:01You just listen to it. I was an onboarding specialist. We're talking to a lot of SEOs.

17:06And they didn't just want to know how to use the tools. They wanted you to help them actually implement it.

17:11And I didn't know enough about I, at least I thought I didn't know enough about SEO to do that for them.

17:16But I didn't like not knowing something.

17:18So they will ask me a question. I'll be like, I don't know. But I'll get back to you.

17:21So it got so I'll get back to you became like I ended up having this repository of like knowledge.

17:27And I didn't know that I knew so much.

17:30Until I would read like knowledge based articles on the Moz websites. And some things might not be very accurate or clear.

17:38So then I'll go to the search science team.

17:40And I'll be like, how is this supposed to work? And then they would explain. I was like this is not what the knowledge base is telling people.

17:45And then they're like, okay, Ola you're right? So the, Ola, you're right? Ola, you're right. And then eventually it became Ola, maybe you should come to this meetings.

17:51And then I started getting more involved.

17:53And then during the pandemic, I was on Clubhouse. I would hang out with SEOs. And that was really what changed my career trajectory.

18:01I would be there talking to SEOs. And then I eventually became known in the community as this Ola from Moz who is always helping people.

18:10And I was sharing my knowledge freely. Yeah, I just started doing more. I hosted MozCon.

18:14I was doing all this Whiteboard Fridays. Then it became clear to me I couldn't be on a customer team anymore. So I was like, I had to leave or I moved to product team.

18:24Luckily the UX team, I had a good relationship with them. Because I'd helped them build a system for organizing feedback from the customer team.

18:32So they were just like, oh, you should come to our team.

18:34That's how I ended up on the UX team at Moz.

18:38I was the guy who was close to the community.

18:41I was the guy who knew about SEO more than the rest of the team. So I was almost like a subject matter expert in the UX team.

18:49I wasn't experienced with UX.

18:51I didn't know any of the terminologies, nothing.

18:54But I had a very good manager who just she loved me, she believed in me. So then we'd have meetings and then she'd say, Ola, you should create this thing.

19:02And I was like, what's that? And she explains. I was like, Oh, I used to do that when I had my company.

19:06So every meeting it became like, I didn't know the proper names of the things.

19:10But I had done it in a shape or form. She'll give me like the description of what it is. And then I'm like, Oh, I can do that. Or I'll figure it out or whatever.

19:18And then that's how I did.

19:19And yeah, it was mostly just understanding what the product team is trying to build in.

19:23And then we go and find the best way to get the truth. So either we define qualitative data.

19:30Like use Spindle or Chameleon or whatever tools we had at the time.

19:34Or set up interviews with users or surveys. Whatever we needed to know.

19:39So if we're trying to, test a design versus the other.

19:42We use like usability test. If we're just trying to know if we should build a feature, then we might use things like a survey.

19:49Or even a longer interview that is just based on tell me a day in the life of an SEO.

19:54What do you do when you wake up?

19:56How do you store your data? What other tools do you use outside of Moz and all these things? So yeah, just trying to understand users.

20:03Crystal WaddellSo there's two things that you said in there that I want to revisit.

20:06The first one was that you said that the SEOs didn't just want more information.

20:10They needed and wanted help implementing.

20:13And I feel like that's still an area of concern. Or, a practice that's necessary and that people are desiring in their businesses, almost in every facet.

20:24But especially like with SEO and marketing concepts in general.

20:28How did you bridge that gap for them? To help them see this is how you can use this for your specific use case or your business.

20:37Ola KingYeah. So while that was going on, I was also using notion to manage all of my work.

20:43And in the notion community, I became an ambassador.

20:46And then I was always creating all these things. And the same thing was happening in the Notion community.

20:51People were asking, how do I use this?

20:52I started helping people in the Notion community.

20:55I started doing consulting. Notion Consulting.

20:58But I had my day job and Moz, that was not Moz's business.

21:03So I wasn't even thinking about it, but then you have customers emailing, messaging, saying oh, all I should.

21:10I would like to talk to Ola. I would, I want Ola to help me do this, blah, blah.

21:16And of course my response is we don't do this, blah, blah. And then they're like, why? Oh, can I talk to your manager?

21:21And then I talk to my manager, what do you think?

21:23They're like as long as it's not like a Moz's responsibility or whatever happens, then as long as it's like completely off, stuff like go ahead.

21:30So then I started consulting.

21:32So my consulting for SEO was from that perspective. It was less about let's create a content strategy. Or let me troubleshoot your issue.

21:40It was more of you're using Moz. How do you use it better?

21:44So instead of click this button, this is what this button does.

21:48It's more of the actual knowledge behind it.

21:52Crystal WaddellI noticed that you gave a talk about future proofing SEO. So we're talking about SEO in 2024.

22:00What were some key takeaways from that talk you

22:03Ola Kinggave?

22:04Yeah it's easier to start with the things that don't change. I learned that from Jeff Bezos.

22:09So people will still be searching for information. Or at least will have a desire to find information.

22:15Whether they want to search for it or have it delivered to them, I have no idea.

22:18But people would always search for that.

22:20Google, they are still a very important business. They will still be trying to stay alive.

22:24And then businesses will need a way to stay afloat.

22:28Which means there would need there'll be a need for professionals.

22:31So SEOs will stay. So that's the baseline. SEOs will still be needed.

22:35People will still be searching for information.

22:37Google will be trying to stay afloat.

22:39Then you start like looking at the landscape.

22:42What are the changes that are happening. And how can it affect all those things.

22:45So there is TikTok is taking away searches from Google. Reddit is taking away searches. The ChatGPT and other generative AI products.

22:54And what do they help with?

22:56There are like four different information types really. So there is the exploratory, so you are really just trying to get like an overview of an idea. ChatGPT is great for that. You probably will not need to go to a website to get information like that.

23:12After that is more of a research information.

23:15So that's more of a, I want to know in . You want to know more information. So it's less overview. It's more, what does this information really mean? That's the second step.

23:25Chat GPT can still help, but for some information like finance and health, you probably won't trust it.

23:31And then the next layer is the information that you really want to verify the source. So that would be things that you find on academic journals. Or, dedicated website like Upsports and whatnot.

23:43And then the last one is research or relocation. So you know what you're looking for.

23:48You just want a place to get the exact same thing over and over again.

23:52The AI products are not that great with that.

23:53Because you could search Any of them right now.

23:55Five minutes later, create another prompt and the results are completely different. They're not consistent today.

24:01There will be need for websites for those types of information that I mentioned.

24:05So the ones where you need to verify the information. And the one where you need to go back to a trusted consistent source.

24:12So that's the good news. I don't know how long this advantage will last.

24:18But at least what is happening right now there's the opportunity for websites to thrive.

24:23Which means websites would not be going after, or should probably not be going after the what do you call it?

24:29High volume keywords. Keywords that are getting a lot of searches because people can find those same information. What is SEO?

24:35You probably don't need that on your website. You find that on ChatGPT.

24:38But then the nuances, like, how do I do SEO for a business with blah, blah, blah. Those are the things that you then create.

24:45And then, the unique insights you get is based on your data. Maybe your software products. You know how people are using your product.

24:52You have data that other people would not have access to just from the nature of your business.

24:57By talking to your customers, you have insights to issues that they want answers to.

25:02You have things that they would like to know.

25:04You become like an expert at your customers.

25:07ChatGPT and all these AI products don't have the training data for those things yet.

25:12Those are the contents you start creating. You get closer to your users and then you start.

25:16When I say users, customers, audience, I use that interchangeably.

25:19Crystal WaddellYeah.

25:19I started out selling on Etsy and then I started creating my own Shopify store. And that's how I got into SEO.

25:27But when you are a seller that fulfills your own items and you make things and you have customer interactions.

25:33I am the customer service.

25:34I am the designer.

25:36I'm the website developer. I'm the shipping department.

25:38All that type of stuff. So it gives you an interesting perspective on how all of these things work together.

25:44And so I think maybe that's why I was so attracted to user experience.

25:48And UX design in general, because I was experiencing pieces of it.

25:53Like you were with your startup, without understanding what they were, that there was an actual name for it.

25:59Could you describe the design thinking process for someone who's never heard of it before?

26:05So maybe they might make that same kind of connection that I did. For themselves and the things that they do in their business.

26:12Ola KingYeah, so design thinking is a term.

26:15I think that was coined by IDEO. It's a design solution firm in San Francisco. And it's basically a it's not steps.

26:25It's more of a five, considerations.

26:27It's based on, solving people's problem. By being an expert on what the people need.

26:33So empathize. You talk to the users, talk to your customers, try to understand.

26:38And if you can't talk to them, find the data. But you need something.

26:41You need to be closer to the truth of the people that you're solving the problem for.

26:45I like to say you are the expert at the solution.

26:49But you're not the expert at the problem.

26:51Your users are the expert at their own problems.

26:53You are the expert at the solution.

26:55And even when it comes to the solution. You don't need to be the experts right away. But by the end of the solution creation, you should be an expert.

27:04So initially, you should be like, Oh, I think I have an idea to solve this.

27:07And then in the process of trying to solve it, then you become an expert at the solution as well. So you don't, basically, you don't need to be an expert at anything. The dumber you are, the better design thinking works.

27:20The first stage is empathize always. And then you ideate.

27:24So you come up with different solutions. You bring some different options.

27:31You try to find what works.

27:33And then you prototype the a version of the idea that you have.

27:37This could be the wireframe that I mentioned. So for me, that was, I have this idea. Does this even make sense? That was my first prototype.

27:45So people call it, some people call it the napkin sketch. And then someone validates that idea.

27:52And then you move on to creating a more permanent version.

27:57So instead of using pencil, I'm like, okay, now let me create a version of this on Photoshop. No colors, nothing, just lines.

28:03And then, oh, someone validates it.

28:05And then you start adding more high fidelity to it.

28:08You see it in musicians. That's how they have demos. You see this with video games. They'll have the first versions or when they do like the announcements. You see this with movies. That's why, they have all this Sundance festival.

28:21Like they do a very short version of it just to prove the concepts. And then they go and expand on the idea later.

28:27Crystal WaddellOh, I had no idea. That's how that worked.

28:30Ola KingYeah, that's yeah, every creative field. Even people that don't know about design thinking. I think design thinking wasn't something that was created.

28:38I think it was something that was like, observed. Even if you listen to the creators, they're like, this is already happening.

28:44It's just a way to formalize this approach to thinking.

28:47Because people think of design as creating, as literally designing.

28:52But they start like design is no. You should figure out how things operate, how things work. And then put empathy into it.

28:59Crystal WaddellIt's so great that you put it like that because when I've tried to talk about it with other people, I think that word design just makes people think art. An artwork or whatever.

29:09And it's no it's just how it's designed, like the steps of the process, like how those steps work together.

29:16So yeah, I'm glad you pointed that out.

29:18Ola KingYeah, Steve Jobs said that I think design is not how things look. It's how things work.

29:23Crystal WaddellOoh, man. I'm right on right there with Steve Jobs. Woohoo

29:26Ola KingYeah, that's it took me a while to understand that too to be honest it took me actually understanding it by experience. Of Oh, this is what I quote, man.

29:34Okay. I got it now.

29:35Crystal WaddellYeah.

29:36And from a Shopify perspective, where I ran into it was when customers would come to my site and anytime there was a bottleneck.

29:45Anytime they had to reach out to me because they couldn't do anything, obviously that was a pretty clear problem.

29:50That's okay, now we can ideate.

29:52And I love to brainstorm.

29:54So when I learned about ideation as a practice, I was like, That's me. That's what I do. That's my superpower.

30:02So I was super excited about that.

30:03But any other time where there was just a bottleneck.

30:06Of work stopped because I couldn't be there.

30:09It was like you creating a zap for, duct taping those workflows together.

30:13That's, that to me is design thinking, just creating solutions to problems so that everything flows. Whether it flows Exactly how someone else thinks it should flow is irrelevant.

30:26It's just that so it flows for the customer and the customer can get to the next step without, any friction.

30:33So I just, I thought, Oh my goodness, this is something that we all do to some extent or another.

30:38We just may not know that there's actually a way to learn about it to do it more efficiently.

30:43Ola KingYeah I totally agree. And sometimes the solution might not even make sense to us.

30:49But to the people who are the end users, it's the best solution for them.

30:54This is another one of those things I learned before I knew. So when I was a DJ, that was literally what you do as a DJ.

31:01You don't just go to an event or club or whatever and play your favorite songs.

31:05You look at, you read the room, you understand the crowd, what do they need?

31:10So that's the empathize.

31:11And then you start thinking of, what would go well together? And then you start testing things, you don't just create you.

31:18All this happens in real time, by the way, you're like, Oh, okay. I'll play this song.

31:22I wonder how they feel about it. You're that's your prototype. You're testing. If they like it, you let the song play.

31:28If they don't like it, you switch to something else.

31:31And if that works, the other parts of design thinking, then you execute. You actually then go full on. Okay, this is what I'm doing.

31:38And then you measure.

31:39It's okay, the last time I played at this club, this happened. This is the amount of drinks that was sold. This is the music that was playing.

31:46You start looking at all these things. Down to the light. Like, when I have the light at this color, at this level. People dance more than this.

31:55Design thinking is everywhere. Everywhere. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

31:59Crystal WaddellThat is so true.

32:01Oh my gosh. That's going to be the first clip of the show.

32:04It's everywhere. Once you see it, you can't unsee it because that is so true.

32:07Okay.

32:08So why do you think that SEO is a UX discipline?

32:12Ola KingI think, even though the professionals know about, know exactly what they do. I think it's the name that gets people like confused because it's called search engine optimization.

32:22So it gets people thinking they are optimizing for the search engines.

32:26But it was never about the search engines.

32:28It was always about the end users. Look at every updates Google has created.

32:33Actually, let's even forget the update.

32:36Why Google exist in the first place? Google was a better user experience than the alternative search engines.

32:43Before the powerful back end.

32:45The reason Google succeeded first of all was they just had one search bar.

32:51Compared to, they take the cognitive load away from the users.

32:55So Google has always been obsessed about users. And they try to provide the results that benefits their users. And then SEOs started optimizing for that.

33:07And then, gaming the system, creating the right content, whatever approach you wanted to use.

33:12But the commonality between SEOs And Google was always the users.

33:18So for some reason, people just never paid attention to that.

33:21SEO was always about users. So if you're about users, what's function in the business focuses on users.

33:28It's literally in the name, user experience. Yeah.

33:31Crystal WaddellAnd again, it's just making things, connect. If your user is looking for something and you have that something.

33:37You want to be able to connect them with your something.

33:40And yeah I think that the words that make up SEO are definitely misleading.

33:46But it's almost like they just left it off.

33:48Search engine optimization for users. And so people just took the first part and forgot that there was a person that was actually using it to get to whatever they're trying to find.

34:00What about search intent? How important is search intent going to be moving

34:04Ola Kingforward?

34:05Extremely important.

34:06That's basically jobs to be done.

34:08So you can't create a product without having a job to be done.

34:12It's what's the purpose? This is this cup.

34:14What's the purpose of this cup?

34:16A cup that is meant to be functional is completely different than a cup that is meant to be aesthetic pleasing without having any function.

34:24It's different jobs to be done. One is to provide, I don't know, comfort, beauty, whatever.

34:30And the other one is to serve a function.

34:31And the best example was the milkshake. I don't know if you ever studied jobs to be done. You know about the milkshake story by Clay Christensen.

34:39He was the creator of jobs to be done. I might butcher the story, but it's just a summary.

34:46When McDonald's were trying to increase the sales of their smoothie. Instead of creating different flavors of smoothie, or I don't know, whatever ideas you could create for smoothie ideation.

34:55They decided to empathize, ask the people, why do you buy smoothies?

34:59Oh, when I'm going on my long commute, I just want something that's. It's thick enough. That I can't finish it quickly. And also it's like filling.

35:07And Oh, okay. So it's more like something that actually, it's meant to be almost like an entertainment.

35:12So that changes the solution.

35:14You're now not thinking like, Oh, the most flavorful or something.

35:17You're actually trying to create a thicker or whatever solution they came up with at the end. But yeah, it changes the way you approach something.

35:24And same thing, search intent. Content that is meant to be like an overview, once again, should, you're not looking at 5, 000 words article.

35:33You're literally looking at the quickest way you can get someone in and out.

35:37And if it's the intent is for someone to get, remove all doubts about an information, then you want to go as in depth as possible.

35:45You want to start thinking about videos. You want to start thinking about audios and things like that.

35:49You want to understand what are they there for. Yeah, it would always be important.

35:54I think more than ever.

35:55Because like I said, ChatGPT will take away the Easy, low hanging fruit.

36:01So you want to be almost be like a scientist about the intent of your users. And not just intent, by the way, the intent is what we say.

36:08Context, too. What context do they need this information?

36:11I think that becomes more important as well.

36:13Crystal WaddellWow. Yeah, that's really good.

36:15My next question was can we go beyond keywords to understand it? And you already answered that with the jobs to be done. Understanding the context and what people are actually trying to accomplish.

36:25So I think that's fantastic. My last question for you, because I know we got to get out of here.

36:29You had mentioned a little bit ago, just about how you didn't really see anyone who looked like you in tech.

36:37And, I'm older than you. I was probably in high school when you were born.

36:40I don't know.

36:41But I never really saw anybody who looked like me in tech either. And when I was younger this is how old I am.

36:47We had an Apple IIGS. And I had a little coding book.

36:51And I would sit there and I would for hours, typing in the code.

36:54And it's if you miss one letter, you have to delete. Because back then they didn't have like a mouse where you could go back in and insert. You had to delete. And then go find your mistake and then start from there.

37:05I love doing that. I would do that for hours, make a little green screen games or whatever. But I never considered a career in computers.

37:15First of all, it was new.

37:16But I never really had a mentor or somebody that was, ahead of me that had.

37:21I had one really great teacher, shout out to you, coach Stines.

37:25She got me involved in the business program at the school.

37:28But beyond that, I never saw myself in the computer field.

37:32And I just wonder, what it's like now. Like the diversity in tech and just your thoughts on that.

37:40Ola KingYeah, I totally understand what you meant.

37:43And even from my own experience as well.

37:46I only got interested in computers because I went to my uncle's house.

37:53And I saw a computer there. And I was like, Oh, what's this?

37:56And I started playing with it.

37:57And my mom, luckily, she recognized that was, oh he loves that.

38:02Cause I, I did have a bit of an attention deficit when I was young.

38:05So anytime my mom sees me pay attention to something, it's Oh, okay, he really likes that thing.

38:10And then she bought me like this VTech computer. And then that became my thing.

38:13No mentor, no one telling me what to do or whatever. But that was it. And everywhere I went my entire career, I was just always the only one in the room. The only black person.

38:23Even when I was in Newfoundland, when I was doing all this speech competition, sometimes my lack of confidence on stage was not because I didn't know what I was saying.

38:33It was because I look up into the room and it's all people that don't look like me. That I'm looking at.

38:39That was what actually encouraged me to keep going. Cause I had to come to show my mom. She said you could be the pioneer. I was like, Oh, that's a good way to look at it.

38:48Instead of looking at it like there's less of me. I should look at it like, I am starting something new. And she said that to me because she knows I like studying new things.

38:57So that was the things she could say to me, but I started using that all the time. I'm like. I'm pioneering something.

39:03So by the time I left Newfoundland, the, just me being the only person.

39:07It became like 10, 20 black people at this startup event. So that changed.

39:12I saw the power of someone being the guinea pig. It encourages other people. And when I went to Moz, same thing.

39:19I think I was the only black person in the office till I left actually.

39:23Which is sad. I. Was the only black person and I remembered I almost didn't show up for my interview.

39:29Because I didn't know SEO at the time and I wasn't too confident in my CS abilities then. Even though I should have been.

39:37And I remember looking at the office from the outside and it was there was no black person and I was almost left.

39:45But fortunately, someone was leaving the office.

39:51And then they're like, Oh, hi. Are you looking for someone?

39:53I was like, I actually have an interview. So then that broke me out of my decision of, should I go or should I not go?

39:59And then, the interview went great. Everyone was amazing.

40:02But that was the only reason I went through.

40:05And from being at Moz I created the first DEI council. To try to make a little bit of a change on that.

40:12And I went to Afro Tech. I saw for the first time in my life.

40:1625,000 black people that looked like me.

40:18To answer your question, that was the first time where I was like, oh, there is more of us all around.

40:24But the problem is, we all don't know.

40:26So I guess that's where the importance of networking and then strengthening the nodes makes it better.

40:32Because if I am the only one in Vancouver or in Moz that I'm the only black person in Moz. They might be another only black person in Microsoft.

40:40But if we connect together Even though it's just we're far apart, but it gives someone else a visibility like oh, no. They are black people here and then it gets stronger.

40:51Crystal WaddellYeah, and it's interesting because I'm mixed So like I'm used to being around a lot of people who don't look like me.

40:57Like that's just never been Something I think about just because I've always been the one that looked differently.

41:03But because I'm looking at you, I don't really notice that.

41:06I noticed everybody else is mainly the same or whatnot.

41:08But I've noticed that, there's a lot of men as well in tech.

41:13And less women.

41:14And then I also fall into this bucket of, this is not my first career. Like I'm old! Or older or whatever.

41:22And so, when you're coming into it, just, for anybody listening, like no matter what kind of other you categorize yourself as.

41:30There is power in just stepping forward in what you know.

41:35And especially in technology, I think, like you said it several times.

41:39We don't even know sometimes how much we know.

41:42My dad is always telling me like, you know so much!

41:45And I'm like, but I'm talking to a guy that worked at Moz!

41:47You don't even know how much I don't know.

41:50Having those people that believe in you and say, Hey, you know more than you think.

41:54And you just have to get out there.

41:57And get with the others that are out there.

42:00Like going to Brighton SEO for me.

42:02That was huge, because I saw other people.

42:04And I realized, Oh, my gosh, you're you don't just have to be like a 13 year old gamer to be in the world of tech.

42:11So I just want to say that, I can empathize with what you're talking about.

42:15I can empathize with other people who may be looking for new careers after having career change by choice.

42:22Or A career change imposed on them.

42:25There's room for you. Even if you think that there's not.

42:29And then, like you said, you might just be the first one that brings other people along with you.

42:35So I think it's really powerful. I

42:37Ola Kingtotally agree.

42:38Yeah, I think what helped for me was understanding that you're being a pioneer.

42:43And three things. One is pioneer.

42:46The other one is elephants in the room. Just, don't try to shy away from it.

42:50Like when I go to a conference, I'm on stage.

42:52The first thing I look at, okay.

42:54I'm the only black person. Cool. It's out of the way now. You know what I mean?

42:57Stories are important. The story you tell yourself is what shapes your experience.

43:01I could look at it like, oh, I'm the only black person and try to make up all these stories.

43:05I'm just like, that's what it is. That's all I know. That's the only data I have.

43:09I don't know why that's the case. I don't know what caused this.

43:12That's not the point right now. The point is I'm here on stage and that's what it is.

43:16And when I'm speaking, when I see a black person in crowd, I would look at them.

43:21And I would say something that I know will speak to them so that's when I would say things like brightness.

43:26You I don't know if you remember. There was when we're on stage.

43:29When we had to give it up to the speakers and where you had to say one thing, one thing that people should take away.

43:36What everyone was saying. Tactical things like this is how you do stuff.

43:39And, it was great. I learned stuff on stage.

43:43But I realized that when I was looking at the crowd, there was a lot of people that it was their first time.

43:48They were new to this industry. They were new to this space.

43:52So a lot of things were just flying over their head. There was a lot of imposter syndrome.

43:55So I was like, what can I do to make them feel more welcome?

44:00So my mind was like, it's okay to say you don't know.

44:03And then all the other speakers and we're like, Oh yeah, it's true.

44:07So that gives the people in the crowd the permission like.

44:09Oh, this people that are supposed to be the experts, they don't know everything.

44:13Which means I don't need to know everything.

44:15So I can be up there as well. And I could see the look on those people's faces that I picked out.

44:20Like they felt more relieved.

44:22And that's what I tried to do. I tried to give my past self what I wish someone did for me.

44:29And that helps.

44:31And the other thing is just find something in common with other people.

44:34If you're in a room with people that are all male or all black or whatever. That's your difference.

44:41But the other things you might have in common. You could both be gamers.

44:44On my first team at Mars, there was someone that was like, she was like 40 years older than me.

44:49However.

44:50She loves creating new projects and I do as well. So we geek out about that all the time. And we forget age. We forget experience. We forget everything.

44:59It's like that's all we have in common.

45:01And it helps me, integrate with the team. So that's always the first thing I try to do. Take the elephant in the room and then try to find something you have in common.

45:10Crystal WaddellAh, that is such beautiful advice.

45:12Thank you so much, Ola. That's just, I think we definitely have to chat again in the future.

45:17And I hope that, if you're at Brighton that I can, see you there as well again.

45:22The way that you exude empathy is almost tangible.

45:25So if someone wants to connect with you. What's the best way for them to do

45:30Ola Kingthat?

45:31Yeah. In the future, even though it's not ready right now, olaking.Com will be the home for everything me. It's in construct under construction right now. So O L a K I N G. com.

45:42And right now, LinkedIn same thing, LinkedIn slash Ola King.

45:47Twitter, just Ola King. So J U S T O L A K I N G.

45:52And yeah, those are the ways you can connect with me.

45:54I will respond any of those places.

45:57Crystal WaddellOkay, awesome.

45:58And I will put a link to all of those connection opportunities in the show notes and definitely guys, if you love today's episode and you love the simple as far as SEO show podcast, I would be so grateful if you could give us a follow. Or subscribe wherever you listen to the podcast. And definitely share with a friend.

46:18If you found something useful or powerful in today's conversation, share with a friend and let us get in front of more people who are interested in SEO and UX and how all of these creative digital disciplines work together.

46:32Ola, thank you so much for being here today. You're amazing.

46:36Ola KingThanks for having me here. I really appreciate it. And thanks for reaching out. It was nice that you reached out at Brighton.