SEO For Brands: If You’re Not Something, You’re Nothing (ft. Mordy Oberstein)

0:00Mordy Obersteinthat's how it is with the brand, also.

0:01Like you are something. If you aren't something, then you're nothing. So then there's nothing to talk about.

0:06Then if you're something, then you're for somebody. If you're for somebody, it also means you're not for somebody. If you can't accept that reality, you just can't accept the reality.

0:15So you're living in a sandcastle in the sky. Which went by the way, where most brands are living.

0:19Welcome to the simple and smart SEO show podcast, where we talk all things, brand building, SEO, helping you connect with your audience, elevate your visibility and grow your business.

0:29I'm your host, Crystal Waddell, here to bridge the gap between SEO strategy and real world business success. By bringing you insights, stories, and conversations from the SEO community and beyond.

0:39Whether you're an entrepreneur, marketer, or SEO enthusiast, this is your place to learn, share, and build a brand that stands out.

0:47So grab a coffee or your favorite tea, and let's dive into Smarter SEO for your business.

0:52Crystal WaddellHey guys, welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO Show Podcast. Wow. I am here living the dream because I have the infamous and famous Mordy Oberstein on the podcast today.

1:06He is the head of his own brand consultancy, Unify. And he's also the head of brand at Wix.

1:14And so he is here today to talk all things SEO, brand, whatever.

1:19Mordy, welcome to the show.

1:21Thank you so much for being on the Simple and Smart SEO Show podcast.

1:24Mordy ObersteinCan I say it's your birthday today?

1:26Crystal WaddellOh, yeah, you can

1:27Mordy ObersteinEveryone sing happy birthday to Crystal, except for me. Cause I have a terrible voice.

1:30So don't,

1:30Crystal Waddellyeah, I know. It's the thought that counts. I really appreciate that.

1:34Mordy Obersteinsinging in my head. If that helps you.

1:36Crystal WaddellI think I can hear it. Yeah. Yeah. I hear it. It's awesome. Good stuff. Good stuff.

1:41You are one of my favorite SEOs and just SEO people. Because you take such a holistic look at SEO.

1:49And when people talk about like helpful content and user first, whatever. I think of you.

1:55Because you are thinking beyond just like these numbers and statistics. You're like, how does this actually work?

2:01So I want to say thank you for that.

2:02Mordy ObersteinI'm helpful.

2:03Crystal WaddellOh yeah.

2:04Mordy ObersteinBarry Schwartz. If you're listening, I am helpful.

2:07Crystal WaddellYou want to know something funny? I met Barry at Brighton SEO.

2:11Mordy ObersteinBarry's nice, right?

2:13Crystal WaddellYeah.

2:13Mordy ObersteinNothing like he comes up on digital.

2:15Crystal WaddellYeah, I think he was a little busy, and he was probably being swarmed by people. And I'm like, hey, you're Barry Swartz, aren't you? And he's yeah. I was like, I'll catch you next time, Barry.

2:23It's cool. It's cool. I know you got things to do. But yeah, he was nice. He was kind. He stopped for a second to chat with me.

2:28Okay.

2:28I just want to jump right into it. This whole idea of SEO converging with other practices and like no longer being siloed.

2:37I'm like, okay, I get it.

2:39Like I, I feel like it's something that people have either been hiding from or just not wanting to accept.

2:44But you talk about brand as a mindset.

2:46Like, why do you say that?

2:48Mordy ObersteinYou want to get real for a minute?

2:49Crystal WaddellOh my gosh, please.

2:51Mordy ObersteinOkay. Like therapy real for a second.

2:53Crystal WaddellOh, yeah. Yeah.

2:54Mordy ObersteinOkay. Like, all I view it as a mindset. I think the reason why I like branding, the reason why I have a knack for branding.

2:59Is I grew up in a horrible divorce. Okay, so I always have to read each one of these warring parents.

3:06And be able to maneuver each one of them. And really understand, like, where they're coming from, be able to speak to each one in a different way.

3:13Kind of like a target audience.

3:15It's a mindset because you get a knack for like understanding like what's motivating people. What's driving people, what's meaningful to people. What's not meaningful to people, what language are they speaking, what language are they not speaking? And how do you relate to them, speak to them and resonate with them?

3:30And so it's a mindset because for me. Like the reason why I say it's a mindset, because for me, it's very much a mindset. It's very much like a sense.

3:38Like a spider sense kind of thing.

3:40People will look at like, okay, like almost like an SEO checklist. Okay. In brand marketing, we need to have A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

3:46It is very much at least on the strategy side, very much not like that. Yes. There are things you have to do. You have to build brand identity and positioning and messaging. And yada in the USPs. And blah, blah, blah.

3:56But like the actual finer details of that. It's very intuitive. And it's a way of thinking.

4:01And if you don't have that way of thinking, then it's not for you. And that's fine. Like data analytics.

4:06Might not be my jam. Because that's also a way of thinking. So it's not like a novel idea. Oh, brand is a mindset. SEO is also a mindset. I think that mindset has changed, but let's go back like five years.

4:17Like SEO was about like hunting keywords and blah, blah, blah. That's a mindset. That you could be good at SEO technically.

4:23But if you didn't have that SEO mindset.

4:25You're just be missing out. Oh, I got like a stock broker. Like they have a very aggressive mindset.

4:29Crystal WaddellYeah. And I think to go back to your therapy session.

4:33You're describing like.

4:34The ability to empathize with people as well. And I think those were two of the words that you use. It really got my attention when I very first, came across your work. And it was empathy and nuance.

4:47And I thought, okay. I can listen to this guy because he gets it.

4:50Mordy ObersteinWe say it all the time, but I think these kinds of things, there's a certain like realness to them. Like you're tapped into it.

4:56You're not tapped into it. Like you're targeting your audience, or let's say understanding your audience.

5:01Everyone talks about understanding your audience. But like that can either hit you in a real way, or that can just not hit you.

5:07That could just be like a cognitive thing. To hit you, for me at least. I think it could be very different for different people.

5:12For me, when I'm talking about like an audience and I'm thinking about an audience, I am really trying, I feel like their life situation. And like their life context. What's going on around them that makes them feel and think and function a certain way?

5:28In the context of whatever it is that you're offering.

5:31I'm like trying to think of like an example, but my default example is like minivans.

5:35Which is like such a boring. Can I tell you one time I was on a call, I don't want to say this or not, whatever I was on the call with the CMO of SEMrush and like a potential client.

5:42And the example I was using to run through some like SEO stuff was the insurance space.

5:47Like all state, Liberty mutual, like Geico.

5:50Because from an SEO point of view, they are incredibly interesting. Because they're running so many different kinds of media campaigns.

5:55But they're also doing SEO. And they have so much branded search, also.

5:58It's could you have picked a more boring niche? I'm like, no, it's not boring. It's like super SEO geek.

6:03This is so interesting. But minivans, super boring example.

6:06And I think I saw a video, like we see like minivan sales have gone like tremendously down.

6:10People are going to SUVs now. But let's just say minivans were like a thing.

6:14Back in the nineties.

6:15If I was marketing a minivan, people think, okay, like you're schlepping your kids around and you're a soccer mom or you're a dad.

6:21That is not the mindset. That's not the actual life context. The actual life context of that person, most likely.

6:28This is just my personal opinion on this. Is somebody who feels like they are completely unappreciated for what they do. I am driving my kids around from one stupid thing to the next stupid thing.

6:37They don't care. No one cares. No one appreciates. I really rather not be doing this. I hate this car. Because it's making me do things that I don't like.

6:44That's a life context.

6:46Crystal WaddellWow. So how do you sell that?

6:48Mordy ObersteinOh, like how you sell it is no one else appreciates you, right?

6:53But we do. That's why we built this feature for you.

6:55Your kids might hate your guts. And not appreciate you anyway. But we appreciate you That's why I put this cup holder over here for

7:01Crystal WaddellYou know what?

7:02I love that.

7:03And not to get on the therapy couch myself, but I make gifts for athletes for senior night. And

7:08Mordy Obersteinso cool by the way.

7:10Crystal WaddellOh, thank you. Yeah. I love them. It's fun. Yeah.

7:13My mom left when I was a child, like a baby really.

7:16And there was some extenuating circumstances beyond that.

7:19When that biological parent leaves, there's always a piece of you.

7:21That's Oh, why did they leave me ?

7:24And so I always noticed like mothers and fathers. But mothers who did things for their kids. And so my number one customer. Is the moms of athletes. And so I love telling them you're doing a great job.

7:37And I mean it.

7:38Because I think they are celebrating their kids. And they are not celebrated.

7:42So I want to celebrate them.

7:44Mordy ObersteinRight? And I think for a marketer, no, I don't.

7:47I'm trying to think if I've seen anybody talk about this on LinkedIn or X or whatever blog. Cause no one like talks about like real stuff on those platforms.

7:55Celebrate you. I got a new role. Congratulations. I don't care.

7:59The best marketers I feel like.

8:01Are the marketers that are in tune with themselves, right?

8:03Cause what you just said was very in tune with yourself. Like you are very aware of that's my life context. That's how I, it hits me. It's there's something real there. And I can take that and I can put that out there.

8:14I can connect in a way. The best marketers are the ones that are like really connected to themselves.

8:19Crystal WaddellYeah.

8:19Mordy ObersteinAnd that's that's a life skill. That's like a beyond marketing skill.

8:23But it's very, translatable to marketing. Yeah, no one talks about it.

8:28Crystal WaddellAnd I think people are trying to talk about it.

8:30You know how people talk about being authentic. It's like that word gets on my nerves so bad.

8:35I think what they're trying to do is trying to find that piece of them that truly connects with other people. That's what authenticity is.

8:44It's not something you fake.

8:45It's just something you are and then being able to accept that.

8:48Mordy ObersteinYeah. Yeah.

8:49And I think part of the problem like this in the digital marketing or social media age or the digital age, the AI age, whatever age we're in.

8:56I don't like it.

8:57But whatever age that we're in, it's very hard to get past like very surface level emotions.

9:04I got no job. Hooray. I ate this for dinner. Hooray.

9:07I'm an old person. I was out my other night with my wife and we ordered food.

9:11And then there's someone in the table next to us.

9:12Young kids. I say young kids, they could be like in their twenties.

9:15I'm some old person.

9:16And they're taking pictures of their, like the food.

9:18They're like, post. I'm like, seriously. Like just eat the food and poop it out like everybody else.

9:23And we're all caught up in like this, like superficial. And that's really bad. That's really bad for marketers. And I know like maybe you need to target superficialness in your marketing.

9:32But the way you need to be able to connect and understand that mindset also, which is not superficial, right? So like your connection to that mindset should not be superficial.

9:41And the problem is like the connection with the self. That we generally have now because we live in such a superficial age. Is generally superficial. So the things that we put out there are generally superficial.

9:52Or the way that we relate to, let's say, our brand. Or the marketing that we're doing is generally superficial. But connection doesn't happen there.

9:59Connection happens with the real stuff inside of you.

10:02The existential questions about my state of being, which are borderline. I would personally say aren't even emotional. They're existential at that point.

10:10Those are the things that actually resonate. Those are the things that should be part of your brand.

10:15Those are the things that would be part of your marketing strategy. That should be how you relate to the world. And bring them into your marketing. But we don't live in an age where people think that way. So I don't know.

10:23Crystal WaddellAnd maybe I think we both have that background in education. So our thought process towards other people is just different.

10:30Because you want to see people become the best versions of who they were created to .

10:34, be. And I know even for the senior night stuff that I sell, the superficial part is I want everybody to see like how great my kid is doing.

10:42I want everybody to see how great a parent I am.

10:45Just stuff like that. You know what I mean? It's I want everybody to recognize how thoughtful I am to you. So there's that superficial part.

10:51But then there's also that deeper meaning part of the, I truly love this person.

10:56And I want to express that love to them. I think connecting that and then also, connecting with the actual need.

11:03Those are two, two separate things, but like such a gift, if you are working in, optimization.

11:09Mordy ObersteinIt's such a gift that you have it. And if you have it don't run away from it.

11:12Lean into it. Like when I was also a teacher. I taught in Baltimore city for two and a half years.

11:16What I was like trying to do, I think looking back what I was actually doing and what worked and what didn't work, what worked was sharing me. With the kids and like using myself, which sounds terrible in a weird way.

11:29But I'm not a horrible person as a role model for the children.

11:34And showing them like here's how, cause these are very like, kids from a very hard background.

11:38And showing them like how I would deal with challenges, how I would deal with life, like through the things I was saying.

11:44And through the things I was teaching. I honestly, I kind of fought the system.

11:48Like they used to test, every stupid little thing. I did not care. We are going to learn about yes, I'm going to teach you how to like, get the main idea of a story and write it down.

11:55But I'm going to teach you like life.

11:57That's what I really want to teach you. And that's what resonated, like the deeper part of sharing yourself with other people in that connection.

12:05Is super powerful. But it has to be deep. But that's really what brand is, right? Brand is there's me as the brand of my identity as a brand.

12:12There's you and your life context and the intersection of that, where you both meet and that connection, that's brand. And that. Connection has to be powerful and it has to be deep.

12:22Otherwise it doesn't, it can't take place.

12:24Crystal WaddellI think the other part of it though, is that it also makes you vulnerable. Yeah. And so how do you recommend to brands to deal with that vulnerability? Because. You're not for everybody, but it still hurts.

12:36Mordy ObersteinOh, yeah, it's very vulnerable, right?

12:38I will quote Bruce Arians, who was the quarterback coach for the Pittsburgh Steelers, starting the Ben Roethlisberger era.

12:43And then was the coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when Tom Brady won the super bowl.

12:47Who said. No, no risk it, no biscuit.

12:48Crystal WaddellOh. That's funny because he doesn't seem to have a lot of one liners.

12:54He seems like a very serious man.

12:56Mordy ObersteinYeah, he's got that one, it's like a great line, right? I say to my kids all the time, like no risk it, no biscuit.

13:02Crystal WaddellSo how do you apply that?

13:03Mordy ObersteinYeah, and I think that's where and particularly like SAAS:

13:06Oh, we're an all in one solution.

13:07What are you doing?

13:08By you being all in one, all for everybody, you are all for nobody.

13:12It's to quote John Mellencamp you either stand for something or you fall for everything. I'm not sure if he was John Cougar back then, or John Cougar Mellencamp, or just John Mellencamp when he said that, because that guy confuses the crap out of me with all of his names.

13:24But it's a good song.

13:25Anyway. You have to stand for something. You are something.

13:28Let's like, let's take a step back. Everyone thinks of it like marketing. I think marketing is like, it's alternate reality.

13:33It's not an alternate reality. It's reality. Okay. You are something. And if you are something you are for somebody.

13:41Okay. I am for my wife. For whatever reason, she tolerates my existence.

13:46For 99. 9 percent of other people on the planet, I probably annoy the crap out of them.

13:50But there's nothing I can do about that. Cause that's who I am, right? I am that person. And then that's my audience: this one person who is crazy enough to marry me.

13:59But that's how it is with the brand.

14:01Also, like you are something, if you aren't something, but then you're nothing. So then there's nothing to talk about Then If you're something, then you're for somebody. If you're for somebody, it also means you're not for somebody. If you can't accept that reality, you just can't accept the reality.

14:15So you're living in a sandcastle in the sky. Which went by the way, where most brands are living.

14:19Crystal WaddellThere's one brand in particular that I love for a specific purpose that I use them for.

14:24And then they changed into an all in one solution. And it's but I don't want those other, I already have a solution for those other things.

14:31You're the best at this particular thing. And I told them, I'm like, okay, now I've got a few more clients. I don't need all of these other things that you're offering. I just need this one solution for each one of these clients. And now I'm paying for things that I don't need. And you're going to ask me to pay more for something.

14:48Mordy ObersteinVery like brands make this mistake.

14:50They like expansion is not an inherent good. Like growing is, right. Growing like your audience, growing your revenue. Growth is.

14:58Expanding is tricky. I wrote about this on LinkedIn a while ago about expanding your content offering. I can't remember who I was thinking about.

15:05Usually I have like real examples in the back of my mind when I write this stuff. I don't say what it actually is. Cause that would be mean.

15:11If you're expanding your content offering. You need to be very careful, right? Because let's say you you write about, I don't know, you write about baseball, right?

15:19You write about the Yankees. Your thing is the New York Yankees. You write about the New York Yankees. And now you're writing about all baseball. Now, if you're a baseball, nut like I am, baseball is a very regional sport.

15:29Unlike NFL football, which is a, everybody watches football.

15:32It's a game I'm watching. I don't care who it is. In baseball, it's really regional. Like you, you have your team. And a lot of people don't know what's even going on in the rest of the league so much. So now you're expanding your content offering out and you're running about baseball as a whole. And not just the New York Yankees.

15:47You need to be very careful about what you're doing. You need to think about how you're going to keep your current audience who's not going to want this. And it's going to think that your identity is now diluted. Once that identity is diluted, what just happened to you happen is that the connection dissipates.

16:01So once the connection disappears or the connection weakens, all breaks loose. So it's the same thing with your business offering.

16:08Like you need to be very careful how you expand. And how you pivot. There should be a natural connection and a natural flow to it. Bad example of this is Jaguar, right?

16:18Like they redid their whole thing. I don't know what is the connection between what they were?

16:22Which I love Jaguar, I thought they were cool as anything,

16:25I know nothing about cars. So like that, the people who like cars, like you're a total idiot, like whatever, I like them.

16:30And now to what they are. I don't know what they are. There's no connection between the two things. You just lost, you lost everybody by doing that.

16:36Crystal WaddellI think they were late to the party. I think they'd already had this plan in motion. And then something culturally shifted in the United States. And whatever their plan was, they were so deep in it.

16:47They're like, we're going to do it anyway. You know what I mean? And so like globally, I can't tell you what that's but it just doesn't. Fit like what's happening here for sure.

16:56Mordy ObersteinThere's no connection. There's no like flow. I saw a thing of they, the reason why they said they did it was because originally if you go back to the 1960s, like they were like super innovative, like nothing looked like a Jaguar.

17:08It was completely different. It was like, they didn't copy anything. So now if you know that history and you had that like slogan, like copy, nothing. Okay, like I see.

17:19That kind of makes sense why you did that. You know who knows that history? Absolutely freaking no one.

17:24Crystal WaddellThat's true. That's true.

17:25I was like, Oh my gosh, pop quiz. I don't know. Yeah, I

17:28Mordy Obersteindidn't know that. I was watching a random YouTube video about it. I happen to okay, so I guess that kind of makes sense. And you are going back to your roots.

17:36But you have not made that connection, you have not communicated that connection at all.

17:41And you've now lost both the people who did like you. Like I like Jaguar, but now I don't like them. And the people who didn't like you now really don't like you. Yeah. No one likes you now.

17:49Yeah. No one.

17:50No one likes you, Jaguar. Everybody hates you.

17:52Crystal WaddellUnfortunately, I could never afford a Jaguar. At least not yet.

17:55So I didn't know too much about Jaguar in the first place. But I do recognize what you're talking about with the Yankees. Because if I was a Royals fan or, or, Yankees guy starts talking to Royals people or whatever, I could see the Yankees people being like, what the heck? What is this?

18:09And like you said, It just it actually creates some distrust there as well.

18:14Mordy ObersteinYeah. Huge distrust. You know where you see it? Cause it's it's okay. Baseball, we'll go back to baseball. And by the way, I never had a Jaguar either. My friend, from Seattle. His father was a Jaguar mechanic. Like he only fixed Jaguars.

18:25So he had an old Jaguar, which was cool. That's why I like Jaguars.

18:29It always broke by the way. But anyway yeah.

18:31So baseball is like super regional again. So you have like your local announcers except, and it's amazing how bad of a brand major league baseball is. If you want to learn like bad brand marketing, go watch a major league baseball does.

18:43What they do is for the playoffs. They have national announcers. So all of a sudden, all year long and baseball's a long season.

18:51It's 162 games. It is a grind. I love it. I'm sad when baseball's over. It's now what do I do with my life? Watch the Steelers!

18:59Yeah, but there's 16, 17 games, like once a week, like whatever.

19:05I'll watch it. I'll watch a random like Reds Pirates game. Like I just like baseball. I find, I just find it soothing. It's like nostalgic for me. All right, I'm a weirdo. I get it.

19:14When the playoffs come around, they go national broadcast. So think like ESPN, let's say, or Fox Sports gets the games.

19:20So you're spending 162 games from the very end of March. Through the end of September with one announcer. One crew.

19:31And then all of a sudden, the most important games is some random announcer. Baseball people like fans lose their minds. How does it express itself? It

19:40expresses itself as, Oh, that announcer.

19:42Oh, he's leaning towards the other team. He doesn't like my team.

19:45And this is why you like, you need to be tuned into what people are saying. And the manifest content and what they latently mean.

19:52You need to be able to read into what they actually mean and what's actually going on internally with them.

19:56What the baseball fan is saying there isI am used to my guy being for my team. And obviously the Yankee announcer leans Yankees. And the Reds announcer leans Reds. They work for the Reds. And they work for the Yankees. That's what I'm used to. That's what I like. That's what I can identify with.

20:13Who is this neutral person?

20:15This neutral person, I don't like neutral person. Neutral person is actually not neutral. I look at him as negative. Anti my thing.

20:22What Major League Baseball should do, by the way, is they should have one national announcer. So let's say Fox Sports gets the contract for the playoffs. Whoever is in that series, bring on as the co announcer, the local person.

20:34Simple. Okay, done, but they suck at branding. So they don't do that.

20:38Crystal WaddellSo this is an interesting intersection with content creation and subject matter experts.

20:43Cause I feel like people are starting to be able to read and understand that whoever is talking to me doesn't know this. Or doesn't understand me.

20:53And sometimes I think it's because of the silo. Because people get so far away from their customer that they're not even they're not utilizing the people who are right next to their customer.

21:02It reminds me of education at the top level, who is writing this stuff? Who is coming up with these ideas of what we should be doing in an actual classroom?

21:11They're not connected.

21:12Mordy ObersteinHave you ever gone to the I ever had a medical issue and then you've gone to Google, you read whatever.

21:17And then you go to the doctor and you ask them the same question and the answer you're getting back, it's so much more nuanced.

21:23Crystal WaddellYeah.

21:24Mordy ObersteinSo it's like that with everything.

21:25We just don't like, don't realize it. So I don't know, like we're writing about SEO. We're writing about baseball, like going to a real baseball person.

21:33The way that you're speaking, all of that, like subtlety is not there.

21:37And I could see it. Imagine I was a doctor reading like WebMD.

21:40It's so apparent to people who are in that. That you're not that. Because we're just so concerned about performance metrics.

21:47We're not even thinking about that. I use that way too often.

21:51That's like that's a big pronoun.

21:52Crystal WaddellBut I know what you're saying because it's like when you're in it and somebody is describing it and they've never done this particular activity before and they're describing it.

22:03It's Hey, I've played this game or I do this thing. I know that when I do X, Y, Z, these are the possible outcomes. You're not even addressing that.

22:11Mordy ObersteinYou're right. You're not even addressing the possible outcomes. And that's how you can tell the difference with someone who's writing well. Who's not writing well.

22:18Like I've coined as like situational writing.

22:20But, if I was in this actual situation, like that's a possible outcome, that's a possible outcome, and that's a possible outcome. Let me address it. That happens. This happens. That happens. This. Imagine like teaching, right? I know top tips for teachers make sure you have a lesson plan.

22:33Okay. What happens when the lesson plan falls apart, y'all? What do you do then?

22:37Because most of the time, like the less it's not going to work the way you thought it was.

22:42Crystal WaddellYeah, you know what has resonated with me so much more as I've gotten older? That Mike Tyson one. And it's everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the face.

22:50Mordy ObersteinI love that. Yeah,

22:52it's such a great quote, right?

22:54Crystal WaddellYeah, that is so true. What am I going to do now? Okay.

22:59Another thing that you talked about that I thought was really interesting is this idea of brand and just business moving offline. Yeah.

23:07And what does that even look like?

23:09Mordy ObersteinOh man, like this is like the hottest of all hot takes.

23:12So I have this like thing that I think we're entering like a digital winter. Where there's so much noise and so much chatter. I have a video coming about this on Thursday. I don't know when this episode comes out.

23:23It's on my LinkedIn as of December 13th. I scheduled my post. And there's just so much noise and so much, you just ignore it.

23:34It's like menu fatigue. There's you don't notice what's in a menu because there's so much in the menu. Like I'm not even looking what's in the menu of this website.

23:40I completely bypass it. I just look at the CTAs. The entire internet is that. There's so much coming at you.

23:46There's so much noise. And it's so much of the kind of crap that you're talking about.

23:50Where it doesn't actually resonate because it doesn't actually speak to me because it wasn't written by anybody who has any clue about me whatsoever. So I feel like we're entering this like digital winter. And I think like the answer to that digital winter is resonance.

24:02Like you have to resonate. Which means like focusing much more, speaking to a specific audience much more.

24:08And getting much more out of like terms of revenue out of your audience and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the issue is, and I saw a stat.

24:14I always forget the stats. I'm a marketing guy.

24:17Brands running TV ads. The stat was very positive about like brands running TV ads and the impact on digital.

24:22But it made me think, you know what? TV ads really resonate with me. For the most part.

24:26If they're done well. Like the stupid State Farm ads. With Patrick Mahomes and like bundling. Bundle-la-rooo-ski Yeah. It's so confusing and it's so like I, you're just trying to throw the word bundle at me. Your keyword stuffing the word bundle.

24:39Here's Patrick Mahomes and the word bundle 4, 000 times. That's stupid. Also. I hate Patrick Mahomes. I don't need another dynasty in the AFC.

24:45So thank you very much.

24:46Crystal WaddellYeah. See, but they're not targeting you. They're targeting me.

24:49Mordy ObersteinOh, are you a chiefs fan?

24:51Crystal WaddellOh, I've grew up in Kansas. I didn't know you grew up in.

24:54Mordy ObersteinYeah.

24:55Crystal WaddellI'm not offended. I'm okay. Like you and my husband, thankfully you root for the same teams. Yeah.

25:02Mordy ObersteinI'm a Steelers fan. Okay.

25:04Crystal WaddellBut I would hate to be in a room with you if you were like rivals. But I think you could actually have some really great conversations. Honestly.

25:09Mordy ObersteinOkay, good. Cause like we had the whole like Patriots dynasty for so long. The last thing I need is another dynasty in the AFC.

25:17Crystal WaddellEverybody loved him, and then all of a sudden, like the last couple of years

25:22Mordy ObersteinThe Netflix thing ruined it.

25:23Crystal WaddellOh, I didn't see it.I don't watch h Netflix.

25:26So now that I know that I'll never watch.

25:28Mordy ObersteinOh, you should watch. It's a great series.

25:29Anyway, like his commercials stink.

25:31They don't resonate. It's you know what?

25:33Wingstop is a good example of this also. I don't get what they're doing in their commercials, other than showing me a bunch of wings.

25:38Like they're competing with Buffalo wild wings. Like I know we're getting a little bit off. Like the question.

25:42Buffalo wild wings is all about. We are a place where we get you.

25:46You're like, you're a sports nut? We are your people. Come and be with your people.

25:50Yeah. It doesn't resonate with me because I'd rather just watch it at home. Not with people, but okay. Like I get what they're doing. And it resonates.

25:58Wingstop is the opposite. Wingstop should be for me.

26:00You don't have to go out to be with people. You can park right on your couch and be super happy right at your house with the same food.

26:09But they don't have any messaging around that. I know. I know they're trying to, by the way, because if you look at all of their commercials.

26:14It's people in their house, people in their car.

26:17So they are aware and they are aware of what they're trying to do. They're just really bad at doing it.

26:22Crystal WaddellSo that brings me to one of the final things that I definitely wanted to touch on that I heard you talking about recently.

26:29The separation between like marketing and positioning. And making that connection.

26:35And that was huge for me. I had to go back in and chat GPT, some of my stuff, with the positioning element in there. And I thought that is just.

26:44Mordy ObersteinPositioning is like underrated. First of the answer, like your last question, like super quickly, I think because there's so much noise, things that happen offline and by the way, offline, I think also means like watching a TV commercial, looking at my TV right now, because you're doing a real life activity, like watching a football game with your family and it resonates.

26:59It's not like in your face, so much noise. So on the digital landscape, you're competing with all these other like noise makers.

27:05But you're also competing with offline where it actually resonates. So lean into that, do things offline, also.

27:10Positioning is like super underrated.

27:12I debate in my head which is like the brand, like key. Is it like identity? And knowing yourself and having something meaningful?

27:20I think from a certain point of view, identity is like the cornerstone. Because everything comes out of who you are. If you don't have who you are, you can't do anything else.

27:28But leaving that aside, like messaging for sure is like the third wheel. Of the big three: identity positioning and messaging, like it's definitely not messaging. Positioning is like meta though.

27:39Positioning is how you, it's very like existential. It's how the, you slides into the they.

27:46How does the you, which is you or your identity, how does it slide into the life context and the life situation of the of your audience?

27:54And it positioning is where like the magic actually happens. For sure. That's where it happens. It's all in the positioning. 'cause that's where the connection is made between the you and they.

28:04And that's it. It's a Mac. I don't get like too late. It's a magical place.

28:08Crystal WaddellIt is a magical place. It is where the magic happens is where the connection happens.

28:12Mordy ObersteinYeah. It's where the connection happens. And brands overlook it. Brands get too focused on messaging. I would be happier if they got over focused on identity.

28:20Because that would probably naturally lead them to focusing on positioning, but they get lost in the messaging.

28:25And as I said before, like to me, at least the messaging is by far the least important of the three.

28:31Messaging should be a natural outcome of having that strong identity that you know who you are. And the positioning, the messaging should be like, yeah, obviously the messaging is this.

28:40Crystal WaddellSo who's an example of a brand that does this well?

28:43Mordy ObersteinThat's a good question. Off the top of my head, who does who does messaging? Like I used to think like the insurance companies sometimes do messaging. Like you're in good hands, like old school insurance, that's powerful.

28:55That's

28:56Crystal Waddellor

28:56Mordy Obersteinlike a good neighbor By the way, Gleyber Torres, who's a player for the Yankees, his call on the radio from the guy who like been the announcer for the Yankees forever, who just retired.

29:05Is like a good Gleyber Torres is there. It's so good.

29:10Crystal WaddellNice. Yes.

29:11Mordy ObersteinWho does a good job? Like positioning? I don't like nobody. I don't know. Who do you think does a good job positioning?

29:18It's hard, it's none of the big brands, none of them, I don't want to say none of them, like I'm like, I'm trying to think I felt like Nike did for a long time and then they stopped.

29:27Crystal WaddellI'm looking at my phone, trying to look at like some apps.

29:31If I've got their app on my phone, then maybe I feel like they get me. Okay. Okay. Chick fil A. For some people who don't like Chick fil A, I get it.

29:41But I am for Chick fil A. And I never had waffle fries before I came to North Carolina.

29:45I thought they were weird. And I didn't like them. And I thought that they were wrong.

29:50They do these little Christmas movies in their app. They do like extra stuff for the holidays. And it's I feel like they just do extra for their customer.

30:00Can you think about creating content for your customer? Putting the user first? We're paying for it on the backside. Don't get me wrong. But at least you feel good about it. Because they're putting so much effort on the front side to show you. .

30:11Mordy ObersteinYeah. And they can be a polarizing brand also.

30:13Like they have like their leaders. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting. Okay. I'll give you an example. Actually.

30:18Like now that like I had more time to think about it, The Athletic.

30:21Crystal WaddellOkay.

30:22Mordy ObersteinAnd shout out to Claudio Cabrera, who's the SEO over at The Athletic, who's an awesome dude. But nothing to do with like SEO.

30:29What The Athletic does is they have like really authoritative writers.

30:33Who, by the way, they go out there on their own and have their own side things going on. Which only adds to it.

30:40I know ESPN could be a little bit like testy about okay, Stephen A. Has got his own like podcast.

30:45I get the sense like ESPN doesn't like that. But The Athletic let's say, I'll give you an example. Ken Rosenthal covers baseball for The Athletic.

30:51He has a a podcast, not a pod. He has a whole network of podcasts.

30:55Under the foul territory, like label. But that just makes me more endearing.

30:59It's great name, by the way. Yeah. For a podcast, foul territory. It's good stuff. It just makes me see him more. And then when he covers it for The Athletic, it becomes more authoritative. And it, what ends up happening is, because he's such a big dude, because of The Athletic, and because of his own thing.

31:17When when he covers something, so the Rich Eisens of the world, or the Dan Patricks of the world will cover Ken Rosenthal, The Athletic, set.

31:25And it just builds up this credibility with them.

31:28And it gives it like, it gives them, okay, that the person writing this is not, is someone who speaks to me. The person who's writing this baseball article is somebody who I know because he covers baseball at Fox. And he covered like he covers it on his podcast.

31:44He's like a real baseball nut. And as a baseball nut, which by the way, it's very important for The Athletic.

31:49Because The Athletic is not the New York Times sports section.

31:52The New York Times sports section is like. I don't know, like my friend next door who casually likes sports. The Athletic is for me.

31:59It's like a nut.

32:00Crystal WaddellYeah.

32:00Mordy ObersteinSomeone who like really into sports, who really like lives, breathes and is actually interested in this stuff. Whose wife makes fun of him. What are you even watching and reading? This is insane.

32:10Yes. But their positioning is great and they're doing it very subtly.

32:15They're doing it by saying the people that we're going to hire are the people who are like real nuts about whatever it is that they write about.

32:21That's good positioning. Like that speaks to me, personally.

32:24Crystal WaddellYeah, I really like that. Okay. So before we hop off of here, can you tell me about Unify?

32:29What's going on with that?

32:31Mordy ObersteinI've done brand. I got another like weird intersection of like brand and SEO for a long time. I was at Rank Ranger. I was their CMO.

32:36I grew their blog like 200 percent like year over year.

32:40Two years? Over a year? Whatever you want to call it.

32:42And I was also like building up their brand at the same time. I've been brand building at Wix. I was brand building at SEMrush. I was brand building at Wix again now.

32:49So I really love brand building. And like I would get people coming in Hey, can you do keyword research for me? I'm like, I don't want to do that anymore.

32:55So I'm like, okay, like I am doing a brand refresh for my personal brand a little bit. I don't not do SEO anymore. I don't not talk about SEO anymore.

33:03But I also really do focus on brand. So unifybrandmarketing. com. You can check it out there. On an X. Look for it on blue sky, whatever. LinkedIn.

33:12But it's me basically saying I've always done consulting on the side for years.

33:16But it's me like pivoting officially, like saying, Hey, I don't want to do the keyword research for you anymore.

33:21I like to do the brand strategy for you.

33:23Crystal WaddellThat's awesome. Okay. I will definitely drop those links into the show notes.

33:28Mordy ObersteinLinks.

33:28Crystal WaddellYeah, links everywhere. When we go into 2025, we're in 2025. This is the fourth season of my podcast. We're in 2025.

33:36What do SEOs need to know about doing SEO in 2025?

33:41Mordy ObersteinSo again I don't know, like you've, everyone's talking about like brand and SEO. And I can offer you brand marketing tips of what you should know as an SEO, what you should do as an SEO.

33:49I think the biggest thing you could do.

33:51And I always felt like SEOs are just gonna hate me for saying this. Like SEO should sit under comms.

33:55Like whoever's running the comms strategy for the company, SEO should sit under that. Often SEO is it's like separate, like renegade.

34:02Where the problems start organizationally.

34:04Even if you're not under comms, sit with comms. And because, like I said before, resonance is the victor of the new internet.

34:13And you're not going to understand what resonates until you understand the brand's positioning, and you're not going to understand the brand's positioning in a deep way until you sit with comms.

34:20So sit with comms.

34:21Crystal WaddellYeah, absolutely. If you're communicating in one way to people in, like traditional ways. Then why wouldn't you want to do the same thing with the internet, or leveraging it same way?

34:34Mordy ObersteinIt seems so obvious, but we have been on this drug called performance for years.

34:39Yeah, it's a drug. And it's so easy to get caught up in it. Because it's so there. Here are the metrics. Here's how many people came, here's how many people like this thing, here's what my reach was, here's the traffic, here's the bounce rate.

34:50And it's so easy to get focused on wanting more of that, that we don't talk, we don't think about the wider, we don't think about maybe not performing as well. But performing better, if that makes.

35:00Crystal WaddellYes, because we lose control in some ways when we Yeah, we do it without metrics.

35:07Yeah. You are so awesome. I knew this was going to be so much fun. I had a great time on your podcast. I am so grateful that you took the time to come on mine today.

35:16thank you so much. I appreciate you.

35:19And I'm always following your stuff. I really appreciate what you put out there.

35:22Mordy ObersteinRight back at you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I love what you're doing and keep doing what you're doing. I keep sharing. It's awesome.