SEO and Digital Marketing: Prioritizing What Matters with RJ Licata

0:00RJ Licataruthless prioritization is what's the most important thing that I can be doing. And for small business owners, you have limited resources. It might be time. It might be money. It might be both. It might be human resources where you just got a small team. The real challenge is not in executing a campaign for a small business owner.

0:15It's knowing which campaigns not to execute. Because you've got to limit that bandwidth.

0:19Welcome to the simple and smart SEO show podcast, where we talk all things, brand building, SEO, helping you connect with your audience, elevate your visibility and grow your business.

0:29I'm your host, Crystal Waddell, here to bridge the gap between SEO strategy and real world business success. By bringing you insights, stories, and conversations from the SEO community and beyond.

0:39Whether you're an entrepreneur, marketer, or SEO enthusiast, this is your place to learn, share, and build a brand that stands out.

0:47So grab a coffee or your favorite tea, and let's dive into Smarter SEO for your business.

0:52Crystal WaddellWelcome back to the simple and smart SEO show podcast. I am here with one of my favorite marketers that I crossed paths with on the streets of LinkedIn.

1:01Those streets of LinkedIn are. Popping guys, you got to get over there, but I'm here with RJ Licata.

1:07He is a marketing consultant and founder of Me First Marketing. And we are going to have a great conversation today about the intersection of brand SEO, marketing, all of those things, but RJ, welcome to the simple and smart SEO show podcast.

1:22RJ LicataHey, Crystal. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's great to finally meet you.

1:24We've interacted on LinkedIn quite a bit, but it's nice to finally get to see faces and chat in person, so to speak.

1:31Crystal WaddellYeah, for sure. I feel like I've known you, because you get that sense of someone when you interact with them on social media and you hear their voice, like I've listened to you on different podcasts.

1:40And so it's Oh, RJ, it's even though we've never met before, I felt like we've met before.

1:46RJ LicataSocial media, right?

1:47Crystal WaddellYeah. So I really enjoy the conversations that you'd start and spark about marketing. And especially about marketing strategy.

1:56So before we jump into all of those types of things, can you just give us some background of why you started Me First Marketing and why you take the approach of me first.

2:08RJ LicataYeah, of course. So I'm about 20 years into my career. I've held a number of different roles, but I've only worked at two different companies.

2:15Out of college, I got a graduate assistant job working at Syracuse university with a football program. And that led me down the path of video, doing coaches film.

2:24Supporting the coaching staff and the players with that. And I transitioned from there into building Syracuse's social media presence. All of the Facebook YouTube, Instagram.

2:33None of that existed prior to me starting at around 2010 and it was great. Great experience. A lot of fun stuff there.

2:41And unfortunately, my position, after a number of coaching changes. Was absorbed by the athletic department. And so I was essentially laid off. And that led me to entering into a role leading the marketing department, which was essentially me at that time at Terakeet, a enterprise SEO company at the time.

2:58And we We built the department from just me to about 10 people. Over my 10 years there. Spent 10 years at Syracuse, 10 years at Teraki. And it's becoming, a bit of a pattern for me. I was laid off recently from Terakeet, due to some Corporate downsizing.

3:15And what I've come to realize about myself, and this leads into a little bit about the me first concept is that I wouldn't say I get complacent, but I get comfortable.

3:23I get into a position where I want to continue achieving, but I'm good where I'm at. And I like, I find people that I connect with at the companies. I like the mission of the companies. And until I get that extra nudge that says, you can't stay here anymore.

3:35I'm just. Yeah. Just fall into my place there.

3:37And after this most recent situation, I learned that there's a need.

3:41Doesn't always have to be the sole need, but there's a need to focus on me as a person, as an individual, as a professional and put me first and the big aha for me was this idea of betting on yourself.

3:52You can do all sorts of different things in your career. But until you take that initiative of saying, I'm going to trust myself. I'm going to bet on myself. I think you leave some potential on the table. And so me first is my response to that.

4:05How can I best position myself in a way that, that allows me to extend my value to others.

4:11Crystal WaddellOne thing I remember, and this is, I think, even before you established your own company, you talked about that concept.

4:19Betting on yourself. Because that was something that got my attention.

4:21Because as a solopreneur and an entrepreneur, I'm shifting from e commerce into SEO, into education and to speaking, whatever.

4:30There's just so many roads that you can take once you get into this world.

4:34But that idea of betting on yourself. That really stood out to me. And I think I emailed you about it because it's like, what situation Gave you the confidence to say,

4:44I need to bet on myself because this isn't to me. This isn't like a new thing that just started with your company.

4:50I know you had written about it before. So I was just wondering what the catalyst was.

4:54RJ LicataThat's a really good question.

4:55I started off and I know you are a former athlete, current athlete, maybe perhaps.

4:59But and aspiring current for what you, I think what I learned in my experience is that I had an abundance of self confidence when I was too young and naive to know better. And that can really work for you, right?

5:13Because you're relatively fearless and you're resilient and you bounce back and and adversity is just another day in a lot of situations.

5:21And then when responsibilities start stacking up and when you're exposed to maybe a broader world and things become more competitive and you're in the professional environment and you didn't get that promotion or, your proposal was shot down.

5:34How do you respond to that? And I think over time, I started to notice that I became personally less self confident.

5:41Or I was exuding less self confidence and I wasn't fully stepping in to claim what I could or what I should from a personal capability standpoint. And the disappointing part about that is that.

5:54Who else could you have helped or how else could you have been impactful to those around you had you really stepped into who you were and what you're capable of. And I think over time, for me, it started to get to this point where I feel like I'm at a bit of a personal resurgence. Where I am recognizing that.

6:11And there were some of these personal capabilities or the assets that I could have used. That were laying dormant for too long.

6:18And so when you start to get to a point where, we had spoken a bit before the call started- about, you eat what you kill. And you're responsible for yourself.

6:25Now, when that responsibility is fully on you, you've got no choice. And so a combination of having no choice and also just waking up and having some self actualization about who am I and what am I capable of? And why am I denying that? Really sparked it for me.

6:39Crystal WaddellYeah. It's so interesting that.

6:41Being an athlete, I think prepares you, for a piece of entrepreneurship because it's like a daily competition.

6:47But when you are a team sport athlete, then transitioning into being an entrepreneur it's. Like that whole idea of team first versus me first.

6:56Like I have to lead this thing. Like I am, there's nobody behind me or in front of me blocking or helping or whatever. It is me and I have to take care of this.

7:06So I think that, for those who were competitive in any way, whether it was sports, music, whatever. This life of an entrepreneur is really attractive.

7:16And it gives you a chance to rediscover like who you are. And those gifts and share those gifts.

7:21It's such an interesting journey. But wow, this time you're starting with 20 years of knowledge,

7:28RJ Licataright?

7:28Exactly. I have, I feel like I have a huge head start and I've said this before where 10 years ago when I got laid off at Syracuse, I couldn't have done this. In 10 years from now, I might be too set in my ways, or I might be, Perceived as too long in the tooth. To be able to step in and do this what I'm doing now.

7:44And so it feels like the right time.

7:46And I want to touch back on what you said about team too. Because what I've noticed in I for a number of reasons not necessarily good ones.

7:54But I let my network go dormant a bit and I it got dusty. I didn't reach out to people as often as I should.

8:00I didn't build, I didn't add more people to my network. I didn't engage over those 10 years or so at Tarrakeet.

8:06Before that, linkedIn was barely a thing, but what I've noticed since is that waking that, that network back up. You start to, Find people like yourself and other people who are similar in similar situations to me.

8:18And they're my team now. And so you can like build, it's just a different team. It just looks different, right? It's a different makeup.

8:24And ultimately everybody's going off in their own ways, but then they're bringing back what they've learned and, throwing business over to one person and accepting business from another.

8:33I think that is a really inspiring and exciting way to, to live and to grow your business too. If you want team, you can find it wherever you look.

8:41Crystal WaddellYou are so right. And it reminds me when I used to be a volleyball coach, I was a varsity volleyball coach for a few years, and it took me probably well into my second year to realize that the person that I viewed as my biggest competition, who was the coach on the other side of the net.

8:58Was actually my closest ally.

9:00RJ LicataYeah.

9:01Crystal WaddellOnce I had that epiphany. I was like, Oh, we may be coaching different teams, but technically we're on the same team of a different sort. And when you can find those relationships and build those kind of alliances and that support system. It changes everything. And you're right. You just find a different team.

9:20So

9:21RJ Licatayou might be competing that day, right? But in the big picture, you're together. It's the same thing where if you and I were to send in a proposal for the same business, we might be competing that day, but. There's no reason why we can't be aligned and partners in the bigger picture of trying to just grow our businesses.

9:36Crystal WaddellExactly. And 1 thing I've loved so far about what I'm doing, from an SEO standpoint is I've met enough people in the industry that when I have a question. Like I even got a question from one of my clients today that I'm like, Oh, I want to make sure I approach this in the smartest way.

9:54I now have a network of people I can reach out to and say, Hey, this is what my client asked me today. I want to take a minute and think about how I should respond. Have you ever experienced this before?

10:03People I can genuinely ask that question to, and they're for me. They're cheering for me. They, again, maybe a competitor of a sort.

10:11But they've been there and they have that experience to help me move forward. So

10:15RJ Licatavery cool. So all of us is smarter than one of us.

10:18Crystal WaddellYeah, exactly. Yes, exactly. And even with this podcast. Like it's been an amazing resource to be able to connect with someone like yourself, like your marketing knowledge.

10:28I'm so excited, to even have you on the show because I followed you. I've seen what you've had to say it's resonated and, we wouldn't probably have this opportunity if. Like you said, our situations weren't similar at this time in our lives. Yeah.

10:39RJ LicataYeah, absolutely.

10:41Crystal WaddellOkay.

10:41So one of the things that you say that I love so much, and I think a lot of business owners can benefit from understanding.

10:48Is the concept of strategy before tactics, and so I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that and see if we could talk about what that mindset shift can do for a brand's approach.

11:01RJ LicataIt's so funny because. If you say that to a hundred marketers, probably all 100 will agree with you. And they'd be like yeah, of course.

11:09But then you watch them go about their day and it's all tactics. It's all head down in the weeds, tactical building. And that's fine. If you've done the work of building the strategy first.

11:21Because otherwise, you've got a bunch of people that are relying on you for, especially from a marketing leadership.

11:28They're relying on you to give them direction and they're doing what they think they need to do. But unless that's clear, you don't get everyone grown in the same direction and it wastes time. It wastes money. The efficiency is lacking.

11:39And the biggest analogy that I like to use is from Alice in Wonderland in the Cheshire cat, right?

11:44And Alice is lost and she's frustrated. And the cat appears out of nowhere and Alice says, Oh, you gotta help me. And the cat says, what can I help you with? And she says I need to know which way to go. And the cat says where are you trying to end up? And Alice says, I don't know.

11:57And then the cat says it doesn't really matter which way you go then. If it doesn't matter where you end up.

12:01And I think that kind of like understanding that and applying it to what you're doing with marketing, it doesn't matter what kind of campaign you put together. If you don't understand where that's supposed to take you from a strategic standpoint.

12:12Crystal WaddellSo what can a business owner do then, or, someone who's in charge of marketing or even the SEO strategy.

12:19To force themselves to take that step back and think about like, where do I want to end up? What do those types of goals look like?

12:26RJ LicataThis is the marketers are taking a little bit of their own medicine too. Me taking a little bit of my own medicine.

12:31Tactics by themselves are useless without a strategy. The marketing strategy by itself is useless without business direction and business outcomes. Because marketing has to plug into operations and finance and, delivery. If you're in a service org. All of those things have to trickle down.

12:46And so it starts by having a clear understanding of where the vision needs to go, some high level goals and KPIs. And then you just bounce it down to, okay, if I'm the marketing leader, what can I do to influence that say revenue goal? Okay. In order to influence that revenue goal, we need to drive, we need to drive more business.

13:03We need to. maintain existing customers. And we need to be really clean about how we're running our operations.

13:10More profitable, more bottom line revenue. And then from there, it's okay what things can we do? And you just keep drilling down and keep drilling down until you get to the actual action steps.

13:19So the way that I build it out when I'm working with clients is you've got Objectives that you're looking to achieve, and those are outcomes there. They're not defined by numbers necessarily. They're just like the state of the game is here, and we want to get it to here. That's the outcome that we're trying to achieve.

13:34Once you've got the objectives squared away, then you drill down into what are the initiatives that we want to take on? Maybe they're more quarterly based. Goals. So those initiatives might be like a series of projects that you're going to bump up together. That could be like, we want to the outcome is we want to drive more quality leads.

13:51The initiative would be we want to fine tune our lead gen strategy to maximize channels. Okay. How do we do that? You break it down into a number of campaigns or projects. Projects are internal. Campaigns are more external. And when you do that, now you've got a series of projects. And within each project, you've got a series of tasks or tactics that fit there.

14:10And that's where the everyday individual contributor can pluck things off and say, okay, I'm going to make sure that this project runs on time by doing my tasks. And they can see how it layers up into ultimately what the business is trying to achieve. It helps with engagement. It helps with the individual contributor, the marketing employee, feeling like their work matters.

14:28And ultimately that's how you get consistency and alignment and pushing through.

14:32Crystal WaddellYeah, I love the differentiation there between project and campaign.

14:37Because I think sometimes, especially entrepreneurs, we lack the vocabulary of like business or marketing or even SEO. You know what I mean?

14:47It's you intuitively understand some of these ideas.

14:51But there may not be a specific word for them that's accessible to you yet. And so that even to me is so helpful because internally, this is a project.

15:01Externally, it's something else. And so I think that's just like such a tangible takeaway for anybody who's listening right now.

15:08RJ LicataAnd when you say that, like you I forget the word you use, but it was you just assume that, or intuitively, you think.

15:13The problem that happens with that too, especially with larger organizations where there's multiple people on the marketing team, maybe some junior folks is that.

15:21They look around everybody's acting like they know what's going on. So I should also pretend like I know what's going on, even though I don't. Because they're afraid of what happens if they expose themselves or what they think is exposing themselves.

15:32And my take is if you don't know where you're going, you need to ask because otherwise you're dead weight.

15:37That's best case scenario. Worst case scenario is you're creating damage by doing the wrong things.

15:41Crystal WaddellAnd when it's exposed, that's when it really is negative. You think you're going to look stupid now, ask a question, but just wait until you mess it up on a larger scale.

15:49RJ LicataBut now that's not the, that's not the fault of the junior employer, the individual contributor. In my opinion, that's a management or a leader. Responsibility.

15:56To make sure that they're checking in. And that they're giving people both the opportunity and the comfort of knowing that they can expose that misunderstanding. Or that confusion. To get more aligned.

16:08That's, so that's got to start at the top. And then it's got to be this two way street where both feel comfortable enough to communicate when there's confusion. Or some sort of misunderstanding.

16:18Crystal WaddellYeah, there's so many different directions we could go here, but I got to jump back to the strategy piece and like getting buy in.

16:24So I'm thinking of a particular scenario. Where, say, someone comes to you for strategy and you see an opportunity there that they've never either considered.

16:37Or even if they considered it just felt like, okay, that's a little outside my comfort zone. And let's just use an example of implementing technology in a new way in their company.

16:47Like how do you get someone to buy into these suggestions and a strategy that takes them away from where they've been? Cause you mentioned, like when people are comfortable, they're in it, they're doing it, whatever. The unknown is a little scary.

17:01And especially for the person who's got the responsibility of paying all the bills.

17:05It's Oh, I don't really know. What are your thoughts on that?

17:08RJ LicataYeah. I'm a big believer in the idea that some people need to feel like an idea is theirs. Or it comes from them in order to feel really confident in it. So I think some of that is like knowing that person.

17:19Being aware enough to maybe plant seeds and hint towards things. And let it marinate and be patient with getting that idea through to them.

17:26So that they come back to you and they're like, Hey, we got to do this. And you're like, Oh, interesting that you thought of it that way. A little bit of, a little bit of voodoo perhaps, but I think it's I think it's about managing people. Not manipulating, just managing people. And finding their tendencies to relate to them.

17:40And then.

17:40Mitigating risk is a big thing. So I was on a client call today where we were talking about, making a step towards a new move for him and his business. And he's here are the numbers. And he's what do you think? And I said the numbers work.

17:53Now, are we looking at it through a confirmation bias where we want them to work or are we, and not only did they work, they were pretty amazing.

18:00And I was like, or, are we in denial because they're so good that we're like, there's gotta be something here that we're missing.

18:05And we went through and we worked through it. And I said, look the risk is mitigated here. So you can put boundaries on what.

18:12And what the risk is, whether it's being able to step away from a commitment to something. If you're working with a outside consultant and you've got a two month opt out or a three month opt out, okay, good. Now there's safety in there. We know that it's at max, it's going to cost us three months worth of work and we can make adjustments if we have to.

18:29So when you start to mitigate the risk, now all of a sudden that new thing isn't so scary. Because you can put it into the context of, we're exploring. It's more of a task or an experiment. Rather than a committed thing. And we've mitigated the risk. To numbers that we're comfortable with.

18:42Crystal WaddellYeah.

18:43And that's a very good point because if you have a better idea of what to expect, then it's not completely in the unknown. Okay.

18:50What about positioning? I was just having a conversation with someone earlier today about the importance of positioning your brand or your business. Like, how do you find.

19:00The best possible position for a company that's already in a crowded market.

19:05Cause I would venture to say there's almost any industry you could think of, there's not a lot of blue ocean. You really got to think hard to find your blue ocean. So how do you position yourself and markets that are already established and you're trying to break in?

19:18RJ LicataIt's really important in, in, in my experience to be clear about who you are. And to understand who you are and who you're trying to be. And a lot of times I think what you find is that people, brands, leaders are influenced by the competition.

19:32What's the competition doing?

19:33And there's a really great line of reading material.

19:37By Christopher Lockhead and the they call themselves the category pirates.

19:40Cause you mentioned blue ocean. And it's this, what they push is category creation and the idea of being a category of one. So how can, even in a relatively established.

19:52How can you stand out? What can you do to single yourself out? So that we, yeah, we want a advertising agency, but there's only one advertising agency that does it the way that we're looking for. And what is it about them? Is it boldness? Is it confidence? Is it their clientele? What's that one thing that you can really latch onto that clearly differentiates you, even if you're in a crowded industry?

20:13And when you have that differentiator, that's when you start really stepping on the gas with amplifying it.

20:18In order to get yourself into a position where you might know that you need somebody in this category, but there's really only one option.

20:26Crystal Waddellsome of the entrepreneurs that I work with, and I have a small group call them the SEO squad.

20:30We meet every week on Wednesdays. And we talk about our businesses and opportunities. We talk a lot about SEO. Yeah, it's great. It's wonderful. Like he said, we're creating our own team, which is fantastic!

20:40But I've noticed that, a lot of businesses, especially entrepreneurial led businesses. Don't have that. overarching strategy.

20:51And so I created a GPT actually to help with this, and so all of my people can go through that.

20:57But the idea here is that you understand like what your business is about and then, try to create some positioning.

21:04But even with a plan, You still have to execute that plan. So my question for you is like, how can small businesses with limited resources execute the strategy?

21:17RJ LicataThat's why it becomes so critical that I, I have I have I think there's up to 12 now marketing tenets, right? That I like led my team through that.

21:25I believe marketers should adhere to. And one of them is ruthless prioritization. And it's accompanied only by another one called kill your darlings. And it's borrowed from Stephen King talking about taking those pieces of content that you might've written, That you're really in love with the sentence structure and all those things, but it doesn't advance the story. And you've got to, you've got to make that tough elimination.

21:47And so ruthless prioritization is what's the most important thing that I can be doing. And for small business owners, you have limited resources. It might be time. It might be money. It might be both. It might be human resources where you just got a small team.

22:00That's where the real challenge isnot in executing a campaign for a small business owner.

22:05It's knowing which campaigns not to execute. Because you've got to limit that bandwidth.

22:09Crystal WaddellSo are there any questions that you can ask yourself to identify and do that ruthless prioritization?

22:16RJ LicataI think that. There probably are. I don't have them handy, but what I will say is that if you, it comes down to being honest with yourself. That's why it's really difficult. Because like you're anything like me, you see these new things, shiny object syndrome, all that stuff.

22:31And you're like, we can go here, here, here, here, here. And. Something I say to my daughter all the time because she likes she, she's a a ninja warrior and she likes to climb on things that she shouldn't maybe climb on. Outside of the safety of the environment and the gym. And I tell her all the time, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

22:48And I think it's like that for businesses, right? It's just because you can do this thing, or you can adopt this new tool, or you can go in this direction, doesn't mean that you should do it. And. A lot of times, and here I am advocating for the outside consultant. A lot of times talking with someone who is not married to those ideas, who doesn't really have a horse in the race.

23:10Is really the best way to get some impartial perspective on, on where to prioritize.

23:16Crystal WaddellAbsolutely. And side note, my son wants to be a Ninja Warrior as well.

23:20And so my thought process was like look if you're gonna be doing all that craziness, Like you need to go learn how to do it and land safely.

23:27RJ LicataTotally. Yeah.

23:28Crystal WaddellI love this idea of ruthless prioritization and kill your darlings.

23:31What's a darling. What's an example of a darling that someone might have?

23:34RJ LicataSo, it could be something like, I always go back to people wanting to start a YouTube channel or a Tik Tok because they feel like that's just territory we haven't entered into yet. And it's but why?

23:46And so maybe. You start a TikTok channel, but it really doesn't, it's really not appropriate for your business and it doesn't have any traction.

23:52But you've convinced yourself that it's somewhere you have to be and that you're really proud of it. And you really want to go down that road. When you start getting into this ruthless prioritization exercise and you say is it necessary?

24:03Is it advancing things? Is it benefiting what we're doing? Not only In and of itself, but more than the opportunity cost. That we're expending by choosing that over other things we could be doing. And when you get to that point, it's like your emotional connection to this TikTok is clouding your rational judgment of what you should do.

24:21So that's the darling is just this, it's really hard to part ways with something that you feel so internally proud of.

24:27But it's just simply not carrying the value that it needs to, in order to keep it. It doesn't mean you can't go back to it. It doesn't mean things don't change. And now you've got a larger team and you can put the energy towards it. To really prioritize it.

24:37But if it's not doing what it needs to do, comparative to the rest. It's gotta go.

24:42Crystal WaddellYeah.

24:43I have a specific example that I can apply this to, like SEO wise.

24:48Because . If a person, wants to do something like that. Which I do advocate for having like your brand name on all the channels, at least claiming that, yes.

24:56So totally showing up for it or whatever. But in the search engine results pages for keywords that you wanna win, there's different elements that let's say Google as a search engine. Populate results. And it used to be just like links and paragraphs underneath that, like the text results, but now there's image results.

25:14Sometimes there's a video results and see like the FAQ type things.

25:19And my point is Tik Tok can sometimes show up in the video results. Or obviously YouTube, they're going to prioritize YouTube over on Google.

25:27So if there are keywords that you want to win that are a little bit more difficult, say like the big dogs in the industry have a monopoly over the top three or whatever,

25:37RJ Licatathe

25:38Crystal Waddellother ways that you can actually get in there is through the images or through the video.

25:42That's just like a caveat for entrepreneurs.

25:45If that's something that you're trying to win, then that could be strategic for you. But if you're like you said, if it's just like shiny object syndrome. I feel like I should do it just because somebody said I should do it, that really makes sense either.

25:57RJ LicataYeah. And I, to be honest with you, I think that's a great point because I noticed myself, like my eyes go towards the image results or towards the video carousel because it's. It's drawing. It's more it contrasts from all of the text in the SERPs.

26:09But that brings it back to to intention.

26:11Why are we doing this TikTok channel?

26:12It's to help elevate this other channel that we're prioritizing. Now it's starting to make sense.

26:18Whereas if it's like everyone's on TikTok and we're not. That's not a good enough reason, but I do wholeheartedly agree with you when you say claim that claim it.

26:26So when you, when any new channel pops up, get your account, claim it, disable it so that it's not showing up because stale or non existent content is sometimes worse than not having anything. But you also want to make sure you have that naming in case it's time to open it up.

26:40Crystal WaddellYeah. Since I'm a creative and an artist, like my main business is creating Senior night

26:45gifts for athlete and I make these giant photo collages. but someone Is running ads against my brand name.

26:51Which is just the sickest thing ever, cause that's how you know,

26:53RJ Licatayou've made it though. You got haters now,

26:55Crystal WaddellBut one of the pictures is actually my husband holding my collage, so it's that is so gross. Why are you doing this? But I realized I was like, okay, the only way that I can really combat this besides, Advertising my, against my brand name, which I'm not doing right now is just to take up as many places on that search engine results page as possible.

27:14And video was one where I noticed I could show up there, and then just really show my face. Since I have a personal brand and, a personal story behind what I create as an artist.

27:25I'm hoping that helps. People recognize that they're not in the right place. And then also to reassure them that you are in the right place when you actually land on my website.

27:35RJ LicataI think that, I'm glad you brought that up because I was poking around a little bit and I saw your websites.

27:40But I also started by searching. I think I, I searched first for Maybe this podcast title, I intentionally wanted to see what showed up. And I'm sorry. No, it was the Collage and Wood that I searched for first.

27:52And what I saw, which is really interesting. This is your Etsy as well. Or no?

27:56Crystal WaddellYes, that's where I started. And I still have, it's still active.

27:59RJ LicataYeah. So like the ability to diversify. Now, Etsy is not an owned asset, right? But the ability to diversify what you own and control as a marketer. Helps to fill in those, if they go to Etsy, if they go to your main website, they're still buying from you.

28:15So now you have the ability to take up two places on that very limited zero sum game SERP.

28:21That's the thing about SEO, right? Is there can only be one winner. And so the more you can claim those top three, four, five spots, the more likely you are to capture people's interest. Cause now as they get deeper into the click through rates, you know how that goes, they're less and less likely to click through.

28:36Especially for things that are, your brand name, right?

28:38You want to own as much of that branded search as you can.

28:40Crystal WaddellYeah, and you just reminded me I need to put official on my actual website.

28:46But this is such a great, just reassurance that the process is working.

28:51Because that's exactly what I want to do. And that's what I tell people, even in my group, that's the benefit of.

28:57Having say a Pinterest or if you're a small business and you want to have a larger footprint, a larger digital footprint online. You've got to leverage the larger companies. So like Pinterest, that's a big one. Like Pinterest, all the social platforms, they allow you to show up in search results for your brand name.

29:16It's just a matter of, getting it set up so that you can show up. And instead of. Your competitors showing up for maybe some of the top keywords, you can include your top keyword with your name on those platforms. And now you're showing up for that in multiple places, even though you're the same company.

29:33RJ LicataYes. And that's the opportunity that, that comes from leveraging multiple assets.

29:38And a philosophy that I like to carry is that Your marketing should be asset driven and channel agnostic. So you want to make sure that it starts with the assets, whether it's owned or things that you've built out that you want to place elsewhere.

29:52It's just knowing that you've got this piece of content, this, whatever, this item, this asset. And it doesn't matter what channel that goes on because you're going to put on the most appropriate channels for that piece of content and for the mission that it's serving. And sometimes it could be third party sites.

30:05Other times it's going to be, I'm going to build out a micro site because I need to claim another spot in the SERPs and this is the only way to do it. So it's being intentional. I think that's the big thing, Crystal, is that it doesn't necessarily, there's no right or wrong answer. So long as you're doing it with intentionality and it fits into the strategy that you've decided is best for you, for your.

30:25Current state of your business.

30:27Crystal WaddellAnd that was the answer to the next question I was going to ask you is like, why is it crucial for businesses to build assets before focusing on specific channels? And when you said platform agnostic, I think that's just like the best descriptor of, like an approach to content strategy. Because so many people start with the platform instead of starting with their business.

30:46RJ LicataYeah. And that's, I think a lot of like where I was going with YouTube is we just know we need to be there. So we're going to be there. And it's great, but no, you got to start here with the foundational elements. I think everything that, that kind of happened with X and Twitter is a good example of how quickly that can be wiped out.

31:02And if you've not also built the owned foundation of your website, of your email list. And of the pieces that you have control over that no one can take from you. If, Mark Zuckerberg decides tomorrow that you're not going to get any reach on Instagram or Facebook, there's really nothing you can do about that.

31:18And so that's when you become dependent on what you own and control, and those things are not going to go away. You're always going to have control over those. And you need to make sure that's telling the best story for you. So that anything you layer on the top of it. We'll have value, but you're not dependent on that because it's out of your control.

31:34Crystal WaddellIt's if those layers are taken away your whole foundation doesn't crumble because it wasn't the very bottom.

31:40RJ LicataAll these people who are you know, there's Tiktok's back in the news again about whether or not it's going to get banned and that's just feels like this never ending Story about what's going to happen with tiktok, but the tiktok influencers the .Big channels, If they've got nothing else Underneath that, it's like a house of cards for their marketing.

31:57Sure. They're making a ton of money in the meantime, but it's not sustainable. If something happens with Congress and Tik Tok and all of a sudden now it's banned from the U S or whatever the case is. And that's the same for any third party site.

32:09YouTube. X. Tik Tok. Instagram. All of the social things need to have some sort of rooted foundation in an owned asset that you can point people back to.

32:19Crystal WaddellOh my gosh. So I'm like, I love everything that you're talking about. It's like giving me like ping in my mind, but I know that we're coming upon the end.

32:27And so I'm curious, because you have multiple perspectives here. When you're a, an online brand or mainly, just a internet first business. Like how can you compete?

32:38Offline. Do you have any ideas for that? Because, one of my friends, Mordy Oberstein, he's got a hot take where he feels like we're entering what he calls a digital winter. And that people are going to be moving off the Internet to interact with brands and that type of thing.

32:52But what does that mean for those of us who have built our brands on the Internet. Like on a website and may not have a brick and mortar?

33:00RJ LicataI'm in the central New York area and one of the biggest malls in America. They keep going back and forth with all these other malls and expanding. One of the biggest malls in America is located in Syracuse.

33:09And all you need to do is walk through that mall on a weekend to realize that interaction in person. In person shopping. Is not what it once was. And so I respectfully, maybe there's more to the story from Mordy, but I respectfully disagree with that take.

33:26Comparative to how it exploded, maybe it's going to, it's going to go into a little bit of a stagnation.

33:31I'm, I couldn't argue with that, but I don't think it's going away. I think everything you think about, there's AI there's all these evolutions and advancements and people are more and more glued to their devices in digital.

33:43I don't see it not becoming a crucial player in the marketing game and the business game in commerce by itself.

33:48Crystal WaddellOkay. So even if that doesn't happen. That people are still shopping online and looking for brands online. Is there a way for us to market ourselves offline? Or is it, is that kind of it?

34:02RJ LicataI think that there's a need to be in the real world when it comes to presence. Depending on the brand, depending on the resources the brand has, that's different, right?

34:11Salesforce has a mega conference and they're interacting with people in a thousands of people in a. Personal, high touch way.

34:18Someone like you and me, we can't be in all those places. We can't extend ourselves to have a, we don't have the following right. To have a huge conference like that.

34:26So it's gonna look different for everybody. But I think and this is, personally speaking and in my career situation.

34:32Where I, suddenly was reminded in a challenging and forceful way. Dude, you need to get your network activated. You need to start engaging.

34:40You need to leave the confines of your comfort zone in your house and go out and talk to people.

34:45And so I think it looks different for everybody and for every business.

34:49But that's where it comes down to what are we trying to achieve? And if what you're trying to achieve can be amplified by being in places physically, whether it's as your brand representation in a display advertisement on a billboard.

35:02Or you as a human being going out to these, very focused locations and spreading the good word.

35:07I, I think there's a need for it. It's just about tailoring it to what you're trying to accomplish.

35:12Crystal WaddellOh, that's so great. You're giving me ideas again. Like I'm thinking, Oh man, I got to get back to the chamber of commerce. And and, like I dropped off for a while actually dropped out completely, but I'm like, okay.

35:22In 2025, that definitely has to be part of my visibility strategy, so I can meet more of the people that I'm here to help.

35:31RJ LicataThe hard part about that is this whole like winter's coming idea, right? It's like when you have a lot.

35:35When you're a fat cat and you're sitting with a lot of good business and regular clients and things are going well. It's easy to forget about the stuff that, is going to keep you nourished in the winter.

35:46When things are a little tighter. And you've got to prepare for those.

35:50It's like the laundry. Every time that, that we get to a way, a weekend where we've got loads and loads of laundry, we're like, dang, we need to just start putting in a load every night and like piecemealing this. And it's famous last words.

36:01And then the week goes by and before you know it, you've got all this laundry again. And so three kids at home would like to wear multiple outfits every day. That's just how it goes for us.

36:08That understanding, you don't realize it until you're buried in loads of laundry that you should have been doing it a little bit all along.

36:14And I think that's the best approach. Is just like incrementally touching base with a handful of people, setting reminders on your calendar. I've got to send Crystal a text today because I need to just keep that relationship top of mind.

36:24Crystal WaddellAnd that is, that's such great advice just to marketing in general too. Because a lot of times when you're busy, you're not thinking about getting new clients.

36:33But then that's what when, you need new clients, it's ah, like you need them now. So that's

36:38RJ Licatahow it works for them too. Because especially in the B2B world, 95 percent of the time, they're not looking to buy. So you've got to still be top of mind. So that when that 5 percent hits, they know to call you.

36:49You don't have to then cycle in and market to them because there you've been touching base with them all along. And so there's quick hit ongoing interactions and touch points.

36:58Not selling, just. Just informing, just, guiding, helping, whatever it might be. That is critical to them being ready to choose you when the time comes.

37:07And so you don't have to be everywhere because you've been there all along. Throughout the whole process.

37:12Crystal WaddellSo if someone's listening right now, they're part of the 5 percent and they're like, ah, you know what, RJ, I'm connecting with him. I want Me First Market ing in my life.

37:20How can they get in contact with you?

37:22RJ LicataSo they can go to my, my semi neglected website, but I do get the forms if they want to fill one out.

37:26MeFirst.Marketing is the URL. And there's a format on the contact page. I'm also on LinkedIn. And so they can connect with me there. And it probably will be the fastest way to get my attention is to send a connection.

37:37Tell me that they heard me on the simple and smart SEO podcast. And that they that they want to talk some more about how I might be able to help them.

37:44Crystal WaddellAwesome. And of course I will put those links in the show notes. So it'll be nice and easy for you. If you heard this and you want to click there.

37:51But RJ, it's been such a pleasure having this chat with you today.

37:54Thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of this amazing knowledge with us.

37:59RJ LicataLikewise, Crystal. I really appreciate you having me on.

38:01Crystal WaddellAll right, guys, I will catch you next time and I hope you have a great week.