SEO and Brand Building w/ Riverside.fm's Erika Varangouli

0:00Erika VarangouliWhen I was starting and I was allowed to ask very stupid questions.

0:03I would be like, why is that landing page, which is about the same topic as our page on the site.

0:07But why is that paid landing page looking so much better than ours?

0:11And the answers would be like, Oh, but this is for paid. And then my question was, why can it not be for us as well?

0:18So historically, yes, I think that's the experiences I had. That conversion rate optimization was more perceived as more relevant to paid.

0:26It isn't the case anymore.

0:28But in, in my experience as well.

0:31It is much underutilized by SEO teams as well. Or in SEO still.

0:36So I would encourage people to think about that a bit more.

0:40Crystal WaddellWelcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show. The podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence.

0:55Thank you so much for being here.

0:57Let's jump into another great episode.​

0:59Welcome back to the simple and smart SEO show podcast.

1:02I am here with someone very special.

1:05I have seen her face all over LinkedIn.

1:07And she just has the most lovely smile. And she's had some fancy words behind her name.

1:13So it was like, wow, I actually get to interview Erika Varangouli.

1:19Erika, I'm so excited to have you here today.

1:21And just chat SEO and, just be able to just say thank you for, just being such a positive spot in the SEO world.

1:29Erika VarangouliThank you for inviting me. I was super glad to receive your invitation. I'm super glad to be here.

1:33And hopefully something useful will come out of it.

1:36Crystal WaddellI'm sure it's going to be amazing.

1:37So just so people know, Erika was formerly the head of brand at Semrush, is that correct?

1:44Erika VarangouliYeah, I was at Semrush for four years.

1:46It was never dull. So I started with Global Content Strategy. Then, Director of Organic Search.

1:51And then moved on to the Brand Department, where I headed International Branding. Then SEO Branding.

1:57And now recently, I moved on to Riverside FM. And there I head the SEO and branded content efforts. So it's very fresh.

2:07But it's also refreshing for now. So, yeah.

2:10Crystal WaddellI knew that you were at Riverside FM.

2:12And I just thought to myself.

2:15I suggested to you that we go to a different podcast recording software at the beginning of this.

2:22I was like, Oh gosh, what a faux pas.

2:24Erika VarangouliDon't worry at all.

2:25Crystal WaddellOh my gosh. That's so funny.

2:26That reminds me, I didn't tell you this when we were chatting, but one of the things that really stood out to me.

2:31Not only this combination of SEO and brand, but the fact that you describe them as having a related relationship.

2:40One day I was just thinking about it because my friend B, when we started the podcast. She always had this great answer of what is SEO?

2:45Or how do you define SEO?

2:47And she would say, show up as the answer to a Googled question. I was like, that is great.

2:50I never had my one liner until one day I was like, you know what?

2:54If branding is how people talk about you when you're out of the room.

2:58Then seo is how the internet talks about you when you're offline.

3:03And so I was like, oh my gosh. They're so related.

3:06And then you said that so I just I wondered if you could just talk about that a little bit.

3:10Erika VarangouliOkay, I can talk about it for hours. So let's not do that.

3:13But I will say I think something that started more as... I don't want to say wishful thinking.

3:18But this was very personal.

3:19Like I found myself very uneasy with the idea of we're doing online marketing. Okay. You focus just on SEO. And sometimes, you focus just on links.

3:27Just on technical.

3:29And whatever happens to the rest of the marketing, team or external.

3:33It doesn't matter how big or small you are. Or, if you're a one person show. Then whatever else you do doesn't connect with it.

3:40If SEO is about also giving you visibility, right? It's still visibility that is attached to something.

3:48So it started as like me being very bored sometimes with being told to stand in the corner.

3:54But also understanding how marketing works.

3:56So even before we go into the debate of does Google prioritize big brands? Just how many times your brand is being searched matter that much?

4:05I don't even look at it from such a detailed perspective.

4:09It should be, I think. Common sense that you cannot have a very different output when we're talking about SEO or content.

4:17And a very different output when we're talking about your brand.

4:19Like, you're still being seen by people. This is how people still perceive what they see. And that is attached to something.

4:29So the more consistent.

4:31The more synergies you find there to amplify from one to the other, I think the better the results.

4:36So yeah, for me, it's something Very dear.

4:39To how I like to do marketing, at least. I'm not saying everyone should, but I like to do it this way.

4:43Crystal WaddellYeah.

4:44E commerce brands. I think, particularly. Can really relate to this.

4:48One of the first places I learned about this product led SEO or content led SEO. And the intersection of the two, was from Semrush.

4:55And I started getting all the little certifications or whatever. It's look at me!

4:59But it really made sense to me because I'm like, why would I want to write content about anything else than my product.

5:06Or how my product would benefit someone in their life, or how my product would fit into their journey.

5:11And so that just made so much sense to me that those things would be intertwined.

5:15And then. Just that experience that people would have with that particular piece of content.

5:19And hopefully their life, being enhanced in some way would then, put them in the path of becoming a customer.

5:25Like you said, it was common sense.

5:26But for some reason, it's just not until you're like presented with it.

5:31Erika VarangouliI could use a metaphor. And say let's say you're I don't know, you're creating handmade products, like clothes. Okay.

5:39And you're all about eco materials and that sustainability aspect.

5:43But then let's say one of the elements that you use is very cheap and it's not sustainable.

5:50It contradicts everything else. Now, probably a big part of the audience will not notice that. But another part is going to notice.

5:56And how that transfers to the model that we're talking about for marketing.

6:00Also, there's another thing I'm not very fond of. But let's say you're creating a lot of content for SEO. Or to rank.

6:06What you choose to go for is also connected to your brand.

6:11Like how genuinely helpful you are, how you approach these topics.

6:16How well you understand your audience. These are intersections between SEO and brand.

6:21And there, there are so many more. So I could not see how a brand when it talks about itself or let's say on social it wants to be super useful, but then when it's creating content for the blog just to rank for example, which is a very common tactic.

6:36It's just terrible content that doesn't care about helping the user.

6:40So they're all connected and at the end of the day if we're talking about users potential customers ICPs, whatever anyone wants to focus on.

6:49They're still a person.

6:50There's still someone who will maybe look you up. That's what you want them to do.

6:55They will look you up. They will see what you stand for. They can combine the elements of what they've seen from you so far and what the others say about you.

7:03So the more consistent, the better.

7:05Crystal WaddellYeah, absolutely.

7:06And I watched my father, build a business from the time that I was probably eight. He quit his job as an automotive manager because he could not get to one of the games that my brother and I were having.

7:20And he was not having that as a dad, he was like, I can't get off work, then I will not work here anymore.

7:25And so he really did. He opened up an automotive repair shop in my hometown with 400 in his pocket.

7:31Like I have, Like goosebumps right now. There was just like, Oh my gosh. And he's been an entrepreneur for 40 years.

7:38So when you are an entrepreneur, you get so close to your customers. And you're so close to what you stand for and what they know you stand for and how that aligns and how that connects you.

7:49And that connection is just, it's something that's so special. Like when you're in those one to one relationships or one to small relationships. That's all you have is your name. That's all you have is your reputation. And you don't really have a lot of chances to mess that up. I saw that embodied by my father, which is really cool.

8:08And it just, it helped me to, Be comfortable with what I value, and to be able to share that with other people.

8:14So you're so right. And then the second thing I want to ask you is, you said there was something else you weren't fond of?

8:19Erika VarangouliSEO content.

8:21Crystal WaddellOkay. Let's talk about that.

8:23Erika VarangouliLet me differentiate. I'm a bit skeptical of some widely used terms on what they mean to different people, right?

8:31I have no way of imposing what they mean to everyone.

8:33I'm just raising my hand to say that maybe we can consider that SEO content is not a thing.

8:39Not because if it implies the intent of creating it with search engines in mind, yeah.

8:45But it's ended up to mean something like I'm creating content for search engines and I want to rank.

8:50And then you get into all the discussion around, is it genuinely helpful?

8:55How many keywords do you take into account? So for me. Things are much simpler. There's good content and bad content.

9:02And then depending on their goal you take the necessary steps to make them work. So of course, if I want to create social content, I'm going to be using many different tactics or ways to say something.

9:16But I, I'm not a fan of saying social content, SEO content, email content, like why don't we hear a lot about email content? We hear copywriting.

9:25So there are principles, but SEO content, I think is everywhere.

9:29And in my head, it has ended up meaning something like, I don't care so much about people. I care about just ranking.

9:35I'll just copy and paste everyone else and hope I rank above them.

9:39And that is a good, that is a bad, sorry, bad thing to do and a bad way to think about content.

9:46Crystal WaddellYeah it goes back to what you just said earlier about SEO and brand intersecting in so many different ways.

9:51And if you are, if you're close to your customer, then, of course, everything's going to be about your customer.

9:56But the further away. A company moves, from its customer being like the number one focus. That's the minute all of that falls apart.

10:04Whether you see it happen in SEO or you see it in like misalignment with, different choices that they make online.

10:11With content that I create for my own website, I sell giant numbers and letters and I ship them all over the United States.

10:18And then I work with parents to create them like photo memory keepsakes for their kids. And so I talked to moms while they're in some of the most emotional times of their life.

10:29They're either. Having a baby. Or their kids going to school or their kids graduating. Or they're going to college.

10:35And so through this journey of SEO, I thought, wow, what are some ways that I can come alongside them?

10:42One of the things I've dreamed about for so long is creating like a podcast for them, just like a private podcast that I would use as a lead magnet.

10:49But just to say, here are some stories of women who have gone before you through this particular transition, and this is what it was like for them.

10:56And so I'm working on that right now. And I just I just had one of the moms sign up for this private podcast and on an email yesterday. So it's those are things that may not rank, but just from listening to people like you, and like I mentioned, Andy Holland.

11:10Like just being a person that people can trust and come back to for information. And, becoming searchable.

11:16For that, that feeling, that people get. I think that it's just been such a gift to, come into SEO at this point.

11:23Erika VarangouliI'll give you an example. It's very anecdotal.

11:25I've had it before as well. Past weekend, my husband and I are looking into laminate flooring for our house.

11:31And we're sort of onto the websites to choose a flooring. We found the person who's going to do it. So we only need to find that one we like, and then tell him the code. So he orders. I'm starting to get questions of okay, what does eight millimeter versus 12 mean? Is it better or worse?

11:48How much better or worse? And I'll tell you what I'm doing the usual kind of search on Google like this versus that. Pros cons, whatever it was.

11:56And of course top two, three results are the big websites that have all created the same kind of page, right? This is what it means. That's a good, bad the good part, the bad part.

12:07And then I'm finding like result number four or five. Be very different. So it's like a much shorter blog post and it is not extremely well written.

12:17Like there are, some spelling mistakes. And you can definitely tell no one paid a writer to write it. But it actually gives me something very different.

12:27So it tells me like, this is the difference. Unless you have this kind of environment You don't care so much. But what's more important is to pay attention to what goes under it. And this is what you should be looking for, depending on the House or where it is and the climate conditions.

12:42I'm like, this is amazing.

12:44This is an example I don't know if it's because google is broken lately I hear but that is the exact thing I want.

12:52And I think people over time, I'm hoping they have become a bit more skeptical of what they find at the top, because you must combine the information that all of it has looked pretty similar for a long time.

13:05And it's always pretty much from big brands saying the same things.

13:09So brands mean like they can afford writers, or whatever.

13:12But here you get firsthand experience. It's not on Reddit, right? So it's a legit website with a person who has been doing it for 40 years. And I can tell, unless it's like some, Extremely smart writer who wrote it in a way to sound like someone who doesn't know how to write.

13:28But it's someone sharing firsthand experience and something that actually benefits me. As a person who's looking to invest.

13:35And oftentimes like when I see product review somewhere. Or I'm trying to buy something, I really appreciate it. If they have answered the questions I have and are important to me.

13:46Which I think if you do this for a while.

13:48And as you say, you're in contact with your clients, you know what they're asking either because you have to answer it all the time.

13:56So you figure out it's faster to answer it for everyone or because they get back to you. You answer to them and you think another person may have that question. I might as well write something about it on my side. Okay. That is super useful.

14:08That right there can skyrocket the trust users can show to a brand versus another brand.

14:14So yeah, that, that's anecdotal, but you're saying similar things. And I think we're headed in that direction where it's no longer just, okay. The first result says this, or the first person that comes up on TikTok says that, so I'm going to go and do it.

14:30Crystal WaddellI wake up sometimes with what I feel are these brilliant ideas.

14:33And I try to write them down before they fly away.

14:35Because I totally believe in Elizabeth gilbert's book, Big Magic.

14:39I don't know if you've ever read it. Okay. It's a wonderful book, but she talks about the power of inspiration. And she's teasing, I think.

14:47But she says that if you don't take advantage of that inspiration when it comes.

14:51That it will fly away and land on someone else.

14:53One of these nights when I woke up, I thought, they always say content is king. But I'm like, you know what, it's context that's actually queen now.

15:01Like the nuance and context is queen. I love that you said that.

15:05And it reminds me that the number one blog I have is one of the first blogs that I wrote.

15:10And it's pretty bad in the fact that you can tell a professional writer did not write it.

15:14But what I did write about was my experience as a coach and why I felt like senior night gifts were so important. And how important I thought senior night was.

15:23And so I think it was an example of what you're talking about right there.

15:27But it's funny, it's just like bad pins on Pinterest. It's Oh, those are the ones that people are repinning. Really? Like the early stuff. Like I got some better stuff over here, but okay.

15:37So. When businesses are, coming into this now, because there is so much similar content about how to do SEO.

15:43And I'm so glad you said that because someone else that I spoke to said, look, if you want to write content at ranks, you've got to write pretty much what everybody else wrote, or you're not going to rank.

15:51And I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to just rank. I want to build relationships with my clients.

15:55So knowing that and knowing that there's this shift in this balance between like showing up in search and actually showing up in search for the people who might actually be able to utilize your services.

16:06What do you think are some of the best questions to ask?

16:09Like when creating an SEO strategy for your business?

16:12Erika VarangouliSo I think it is it is a hard position to be in.

16:15To be a small business or to just be starting. Your starting or your small and others have are ahead by miles.

16:23So one way I approach it is.

16:26I know we're talking about Etsy previously but there are so many different, let's say community focused, like sales environments.

16:33One approach is we're going to start building a smaller even community, but get me started.

16:39Cause as a business person, I need to start making and generating revenue in order to be able to grow.

16:45Okay. If I'm a small seller and I want to target the same stuff that I don't know, Amazon targets or everyone else, like it's going to be hard, right?

16:53It's going to take me ages. So if we're talking about how to diversify. A strategy to generate revenue, I would say go where your community is or can be built faster, right?

17:05There's not one way to go about it. And it doesn't go through google in the first instance anyway. So that would always be my first.

17:14Number two would be, I would generally ensure that I have some basics, right?

17:19Okay. So anything that has to do with my products. Anything that has to do with our descriptions.

17:25Anything that has to do with information around how, who am I? Or who's my company, right?

17:31Where are we based? Shipping information, returns. All of the things that have to do with trust are super important.

17:38And I was discussing it with someone the other day.

17:40But we cannot ignore the power of the habit. That people have, right?

17:46So for years, people are used to buying online on Amazon. Or eBay. And for me, one of the effects this has, is that they don't have to doubt.

17:56How secure they feel in that transaction.

17:59How secure they feel their payment. Their personal information is.

18:03How safe they feel that they can return it easily.

18:06Or, somewhere where they use Klarna. So they don't even have to pay in advance before they see it.

18:11So all of these are, maybe, potential obstacles. For someone who's very fresh to it. And hasn't really done a lot of work.

18:17So they have, I think, to over try and build for sure those trust signals.

18:22Invite their buyers to leave reviews as much as they can. In their place of choice.

18:28And then after that, to be honest, I would still understand my audience.

18:33What are they searching for? Even if I don't come up at the top right now, It gives me pointers as to okay.

18:39What kind of searches are relevant to my audience?

18:42To do that. I would also ask questions or answer their questions like we were saying before so before I even go into The thought of how do I rank for something that amazon ranks? Let's say I don't know what that may be. What is What are my customers asking?

18:59And I would take inspiration from other similar stores, not just competitors. Maybe there's not many in my area or where I am right now.

19:06But from other similar products, similar sellers elsewhere, even like from big sellers, like Amazon.

19:13What are people asking about this type of product?

19:16And I would answer those questions in a useful way.

19:19And then probably that would be where the intersection with brand comes in, as well, a lot.

19:26Is where I build my community?

19:28How do I engage it? How do I encourage word of mouth, right? So sometimes You know, building a first kind of core community around you.

19:38And then encouraging that word of mouth can help you grow fast.

19:42The strategies that Dropbox, for example, used when it started to, when it wanted to grow.

19:47Or Slack, bring everyone else and then you'll get a discount.

19:50Then those are like amazing strategies to grow or test your product if you're at that phase right now.

19:56So I don't believe you can avoid answering questions that people ask.

20:01That ties into keyword research, seo and everything.

20:04But I don't believe it's a one way street to how you do it.

20:06Or, all you can do Is just write similar content to everyone else.

20:11You can write very different content.

20:13Like What ranks at the top, gives you an indication of what people may want to find under that query.

20:20But how are you different? Like how much more do you know about that audience? What else should you answer?

20:26How much less should you put there is up to you.

20:29Crystal WaddellYeah. I like that. How much less, because it's get to the point. Oh my

20:33God, so long. I didn't want to read all that.

20:35Erika VarangouliBut yeah it ended up being a self fulfilling prophecy for years now, right?

20:40That whatever you see at the top, just replicate it.

20:43And kid yourself that you're doing a better job because you're either a better writer or you added like a visual the skyscraper technique.

20:50That's not it.

20:51And I think we're all a bit shaken right now by what we see in Google results.

20:56But part of me is super glad this distraction has happened. Not because I like seeing Reddit everywhere.

21:01But because I definitely do not like seeing the top results being pretty much the same things.

21:06Okay, so this is a pivot.

21:08Crystal WaddellI wasn't really thinking about this earlier, but this whole relationship between Google and Reddit, do you understand that? Or what is happening there?

21:16Erika VarangouliI am not one to easily go into like speculation. Just because I know It happens a lot in SEO. And it's not always to the benefit of people around us.

21:25Officially, what the case is that it can be used or it will be used. That was the agreement for training purposes.

21:33So for AI, generative AI, that would be like a source of training. And that, to me, makes a lot of sense.

21:41Other than that, whether that triggers like more Reddit listings maybe it looks like it now, although like Reddit was on a pretty steep rise for a long time before this was announced.

21:53But I also remember an agreement between Google and Twitter.

21:57But I don't see many Twitter cards on the SERPs anymore.

22:01So I'm pretty confident that if that's the case. Like the interaction of users and those signals will affect the end result. I think we can all see. Like the balance having been lost a bit.

22:14And like how many forums we see there, not just Reddit, but why that was done, what it serves I don't want to go into the speculation, but it does make sense to me to be used for training purposes.

22:25Crystal WaddellYeah, absolutely.

22:27Erika VarangouliPart of it. I'm not saying that will be all, but officially, that resonates a lot.

22:32Crystal WaddellYeah, and it's interesting that you pointed out that Twitter those clips or those things showing up in the search engine results pages may not be happening as much. I don't know.

22:40It makes my mind spin here.

22:41Erika VarangouliThat was a statement from many years ago. Maybe they were much more prominent for a long time, but nowadays they're not so much.

22:48I don't know why again, like I'm assuming it's down to user signals, but I'm saying that I hope we are not stuck with results that are full of Reddit from now on.

22:57But it makes sense to, to want to use something like Reddit as basis for training for multiple purposes.

23:04That the ethical and other issues that may be creating I'm hoping Google, and I'm sure they employ much smarter people than I am to be able to take care of that.

23:12Crystal WaddellI don't know about that.

23:13But one thing I do remember is months ago, people were talking about the importance of starting to post on Reddit. And, get a presence there.

23:22I had one client in particular that I told her, I was like, I know you have a lot going on.

23:26But if you can just take a day a week or something.

23:28Just go over there in the forums. And see if you could, comment here or there and just build something.

23:33And. I just remember that advice coming from somewhere out of the blue months ago.

23:38Erika VarangouliI think it's like I remember myself years, many years ago when I was starting as as an SEO and content strategist.

23:44Okay, that was like 10 years ago, maybe more. And I was doing research for clients and many of them were smaller kind of companies.

23:53And part of my advice when it was relevant, I was like look, I see a lot of relevant content, people asking about relevant topics on Quora. On Reddit.

24:01We should be there like that should be part of our strategy. And 99 percent of the time, the answer was like, no, we just care to rank on Google.

24:10I'm not saying that if they had done it, although I do see results from Reddit from 10 years ago ranking right now, which hurts me.

24:17But I'm saying again the real Validation point is where's your audience? And what are, what do they want to find out?

24:24So if that is where they are, that should be a consideration, not whether that will rank on Google or not.

24:31But whether, but rather are they there? Could you add value there?

24:35And could you see value from doing that? And it's also like a platform where probably Fabrica Brands is a part of reputation management too.

24:43Crystal WaddellYeah, gosh, there's so many moving parts.

24:45That actually leads into this next question I had.

24:48Which was about the pros and cons of the statement.

24:52Let me see if I can get it out without butchering it that an SEO's responsibility ends at generating leads. Do you think that's true? And what parts of it are true? What parts of it leave out any piece or any part of it not true? Any thoughts on that statement?

25:10Erika VarangouliSo I don't have context for that statement.

25:13Crystal WaddellOkay. So how about this?

25:13Someone is hired to do optimization for a website.

25:18And they believe that, okay, if we drive leads to your website, that's the end of our role.

25:26Erika VarangouliI think that the one of the problems I have with this statement is that SEO is often like a very top of the funnel channel, right?

25:35So. At that stage to be saying that what you're driving to a website is only leads.

25:40It's probably displaying some ignorance around how SEO works.

25:44However, to the degree that it indicates that sEO's bottom line should affect the business bottom line, and one way this happens is by driving relevant traffic.

25:55Therefore, relevant traffic is more likely to convert to leads and then conversions. Okay. I hear that.

26:03When you first said it, my, my first kind of thought was, is that relevant to, let's say if the statement was about email marketing? Or paid, or social?

26:13So I wouldn't necessarily I think. Maybe paid more, but it's not just leads that is part of it.

26:20I would rephrase it to relevant traffic, relevant people.

26:24And that means as well, like relevant to your business doesn't mean they're a lead right now.

26:29Do we count as a lead someone who converts a year later. Because they've seen your content 10 times during that time?

26:36And how many businesses track that properly? I would question and probably put them on the spot.

26:42So, no. I don't agree a hundred percent.

26:44But if rephrase slightly to say relevant traffic, relevant people, regardless of the stage they're in right now, how far they are from conversion.

26:54Then yeah, I would accept that.

26:55Crystal WaddellYeah, and there's something else that you had spoken about before that.

26:59I was leading you towards that as well. I was like, I'm so sorry. It's a leading question.

27:03But you had mentioned conversion rate optimization as a factor as well. And, Again, coming from this entrepreneurial perspective. And it's okay, this is how you do SEO. Okay.

27:15All 10 articles on the search engine results page says I should do it like this.

27:19So I do it like this. I get all of this traffic. Woo hoo. Look at me go. And then I'm looking at my bank account going where's the money?

27:25And so that's when it made me stop. Okay, hold on. There's a difference between, like you said, traffic.

27:31And relevant traffic. But then I ran into something called.

27:35User experience. And I was like, now this is what I need to be doing.

27:39But it's like you need it all. And so I just, I wondered if that's what you're talking about with like how SEO works.

27:44Erika VarangouliConversion rate, it's definitely not leads still.

27:47Cause like with SEO, you might drive people to a relevant page on your site. Or somewhere on your site where you know the.

27:54The content and the phase that person is in is much higher in the funnel.

27:58So they're not a lead unless we consider leads, anyone that will convert eventually even after years. And we somehow track all of that.

28:04But conversion rate optimization for me is super important. And because historically and traditionally it's been more associated with paid.

28:12That's another problem I had for years when it was like, okay, we're driving a lot of traffic. It is relevant. Like it's relevant to our audience.

28:20Our content is relevant. This is our conversion rate, which doesn't make much sense.

28:25If they're lower than the funnel or looking at what I think, let's say Create a hypothesis.

28:30If I drive a thousand people to this page and I think 10 of them would be ready to convert, why is only one of them converting?

28:36So that becomes the attachment to your strategy that says, okay, like now I'm optimizing my own strategy. My own content.

28:45To be bringing results. And it becomes an indispensable part of it.

28:50So yeah, it's not just about leads. It's about what are the results of whatever you have created as part of your SEO strategy.

28:59Crystal WaddellSo what you just said there, I've never thought about before. I've never heard. But that conversion rate optimization was originally more. With the ad side of.

29:10Erika VarangouliTraditionally, yeah.

29:10It would be done as like part of optimizing landing pages for paid campaigns. So that was maybe I'm just talking to people of my generation who started many years ago.

29:21When I was starting and I was allowed to ask very stupid questions.

29:24I would be like, why is that landing page, which is about the same topic as our page on the site.

29:28But why is that paid landing page looking so much better than ours?

29:32And the answers would be like, Oh, but this is for paid. And then my question was, why can it not be for us as well?

29:39So historically, yes, I think that's the experiences I had.

29:43That conversion rate optimization was more perceived as more relevant to paid.

29:47It isn't the case anymore.

29:49But in, in my experience as well, it is much underutilized by SEO teams as well. Or in SEO still.

29:57So I would encourage people to think about that a bit more.

30:01Crystal WaddellThat explains why it's not brought up more in SEO conversations.

30:06Because if it's traditionally been more on this other side and people talk pretty much about the same thing all the time.

30:12It makes sense how they didn't quite converge, earlier.

30:16Erika VarangouliIt's a whole discipline.

30:18If we're talking, let's say big brands and everything, or big companies. Yeah. You need experts for that.

30:22But in the same way for me, you need experts for technical SEO, right? Not everyone is a technical SEO or content.

30:28So that meeting point between the two for me is crucial.

30:33So yeah.

30:33Crystal WaddellWow. So that is, oh man, that's going to be a thread that I'm going to have to go pull on now.

30:40Erika VarangouliLet me just say something. Okay.

30:41Cause I'm thinking like, okay, your audience.

30:43The people who are, one person show or very small teams or solopreneurs.

30:48Most likely they cannot afford that, right?

30:51That's quite expensive. It requires a lot of testing.

30:53But in practice and day to day.

30:56Just look at your content, look at your pages.

30:58And even things like you cannot test in a strict testing environment, I get it.

31:04But tweak around some of your calls to action. Or add a few in your content.

31:09Or, try to think like your audience.

31:12And say, okay, from this page, I include a prominent button for people to convert.

31:16Or put it above that other call to action. Or just have one.

31:20What happens? You can not necessarily measure it appropriately.

31:24But still like it puts you in the process of thinking, okay, when I buy, look at the websites. or e commerce sites that you like.

31:32That you find the experience smoothest.

31:34And just try to think, would that resonate with my audience? And then just try it.

31:39Just take some chances and see what happens.

31:42Crystal WaddellYeah.

31:42When I started, going down this rabbit hole of user experience, I signed up for a user experience course on Coursera.

31:49I think it was Google's course or whatever. And that's when I learned, you could have somebody go on your website.

31:54And watch them click around. And see what happens, and then.

31:57Someone just, I think it was Celeste, she's coming on the podcast soon, she talked about heat maps and like seeing where people are clicking or rage clicking or thinking that something should be clickable and it's not.

32:08I love all of this optimization.

32:10It's like a constantly unfolding puzzle. There's just always something new to solve.

32:15Erika VarangouliYeah.

32:16Crystal WaddellOkay. I think the last question that I wanted to ask you before our time ends today.

32:21And once again, I just want to say thank you, Erika.

32:23This has just been a treat. So fun.

32:25How often do you think that a small business or any business should evaluate their strategy?

32:31They say, okay, I'm going to put these things into practice.

32:35What is the process or how long before you determine does it need to be tweaked changed?

32:41Erika VarangouliThat is a very good question and a very practical question.

32:44But let me think.

32:46My experience with small businesses is that very often there is no strategy, right?

32:50It's just we need the website, we need to have the content.

32:54And then we just, Pay a writer to write stuff based on whatever they search online.

33:00Or we give them like a few keywords to write. Now I don't necessarily consider that a strategy, right? That's a start. Or it's something.

33:08But for me, the strategy needs to be around what do I want to achieve?

33:12So there are two, three main elements of that.

33:14What do I want to achieve? How will I achieve it? And then it's like, how much am I going to put in?

33:20So if any of those three elements are missing or seriously underperforming, I would say we re evaluate.

33:27But the question, if it's connected to SEO alone, right?

33:32You can read a lot online about how long does SEO take to work?

33:35And then you'll see different answers, like not at all, or at least six months. And that also depends on how big your website is. Or how fresh you are, how much you have.

33:45What I would say is that you would need to probably collect information for your industry, your competitors, see where you are against them. And then try to set a realistic expectation.

33:57Because you can easily panic. And say that I'm going to change what I do every month. And then just end up circling around.

34:04You want to be consistent. You want to be persistent.

34:07But then also if you're doing it for two years and you're not seeing much, it makes sense to really doubt.

34:13So I'm not saying review every month. I'm not saying review after a year.

34:17I'm saying set a realistic expectation from the start or as realistic as possible. And then review at that time.

34:24Like if you're starting to see some movement, maybe you don't need to reshuffle everything. You just need to tweak or add more things to it.

34:31But if you're seeing nothing at all and it's been months and you're spending money on doing something or your energy.

34:37Consider changing some part of it. Or adding elements to that equation. But I'm afraid I cannot answer it for everyone.

34:44Okay, I can answer it for like companies I've worked for or my experiences. But I know it's so different for everyone.

34:51Crystal WaddellYeah. It's always great to get perspective from someone who's done it, before.

34:56Erika VarangouliDefinitely don't panic in the first month or two.

34:58Like I've had clients who are like, We've been doing it for two months now, and we don't see much movement.

35:02It's like, you're only getting started.

35:04So the smaller you are, the more logical it is to needing a bit more time for things to work.

35:10But it also depends on how much you're doing. So there are a lot of elements there.

35:14Crystal WaddellAwesome. Okay. Erika, if someone wants to follow you or just, see what you're up to now. And what you're working on now.

35:21Where would be the best place for them to do that?

35:24Erika VarangouliProbably LinkedIn where you found me, Crystal. Just LinkedIn with my name, Erika Varangouli. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to connect and speak with people there.

35:31Awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

35:34We are this close to 60, 000 downloads. So as a podcast, so hopefully when your episode airs, we will either be at that point or, just past it, but I hope that you're part of that, big milestone for us.

35:48Thank you. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me.

35:51All right, I will see you next time. Bye.