Creative SEO and Conversion Copywriting w/ Haley Burns

Brittany Herzberg:

0:00Welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO show. We are here today with Haley Burns.

Brittany HerzbergSay, hi, Crystal. Say,

Crystal Waddellhi, Haley. Hi, B.

Brittany HerzbergThat was so great.

So today we're going to be talking about really like how to come up with your ideas like how to ideate, how to be creative and how to use that to drive traffic and engagement to and on your website. Are we ready?

Haley BurnsDefinitely.

Crystal WaddellI love it. Any time we can like riff on creativity. I am down for that conversation. So thanks for being here, hayley.

Brittany HerzbergYeah.

Haley BurnsOf course.

Brittany HerzbergLove this topic. Okay. And before I did not prep you for this one.

Because I love just the like on the spot thoughts that come to you.

But if you've listened to the show, you may know, I love asking people how they define SEO.

Or what you think of when SEO is mentioned. And there's no wrong answer.

Haley BurnsYeah.

I think of just the keywords that Differentiate you. And get you those rankings.

Brittany HerzbergYeah.

And that's where it's a totally good answer.

And that's where I've noticed, even just in the last couple of weeks, working with my clients, they have the creative, lovely, beautiful language about what they do and who they help and how they help.

But then we add in the keywords and that's a little bit. Sometimes it can be thought of as like the stiff side of things or the not fun side of things.

So I'm excited to just to get to tie these two together.

Haley BurnsYeah, totally. Totally. Yeah.

Crystal WaddellThat's what I've been dealing with lately. Helping somebody build a brand new website. It's like a branch of their original business.

It's like keywords actually for me are a new jumping off point of creativity.

And it mainly because people hear me talk about surfer all the time.

But I can't say enough how much Surfer SEO and Jasper has helped me. Come up with ideas that I never would have thought of on my own.

Because I'm just like trying so hard and working so hard.

My poor little brain is just overpowered, but then it's

Oh, here's like a little nugget that you

2:00might've missed in a little opportunity of a keyword or an idea.

And yeah, I love now that like keywords.

Even though they seem so boring, they can actually give you so many more ideas.

To, really stand out in your niche or

whatever.

Brittany HerzbergYeah. So Haley.

Your thoughts on why do you think creativity even matters when it comes to being found online?

Haley BurnsYeah. I A lot of people came online with their businesses, COVID time.

And I think it's more saturated and competitive than ever.

And the way that you write for your business, whether you're a copywriter or not.

Needs to be, more unique and more refined than ever in a world where, there's just a million of the same offerings and, just being really niche and being somebody that doesn't sound like chat GPT.

And so that's where creativity comes into play. When creating like a really

3:00authentic brand voice. Where people are being more discerning with how they buy and who they work with.

Brittany HerzbergAnd I think too, like when you are creative, when you let. I think of it too as like your essence, like who you are and why you're different and just really let you shine.

You draw in the right people that are like good fits for you.

And when you let people see that side of you.

A lot of us are like, we, it's almost like we get it like, This is harsh, but beat out of us growing up to not be ourselves and to just like fall in line and be like everybody else.

But the magic is when you bring you in.

And if we can tap into that creativity and just be ourselves, I think it really draws in the right people.

Crystal WaddellAnd I wanted to piggyback on what you said about so many people starting businesses and coming online in 2020.

I know that it's saturated. I know there's so much out there.

But at the same time, I'm jealous in a way of the people who just started their businesses

4:00in 2020.

Because the information, it just seems like to be proliferating. Proliferating.

Like B and I started this podcast because we were years into our businesses before we discovered SEO.

And people who are tuning in now, you've just started your business.

Let me just assure you, even if it's saturated, you are getting like a five or six year head start on most people. You go girl, you go boy, whoever's listening, yeah. You're right where you need to be.

Brittany HerzbergYeah. And even just this week, I was having, again, with the conversations with my clients, I did a couple of audits and the numbers are really low.

They don't have a high domain authority.

They don't have a lot of keywords that they're ranking for. And I'm like, this is great.

And they're like, are you sure? I'm like, yeah, this is wonderful because you can only go up from here and you're going to get this strategy.

You're going to have a really good, solid understanding of what needs to happen, and then the trajectory is just going to like skyrocket.

Crystal WaddellOkay. I just have to share a very quick win, you guys.

Domain authority. I just crossed 25.

Brittany HerzbergI'm really happy for you.

5:00And when you checked yours, I just hit 20.

Crystal WaddellYou go girl.

Brittany HerzbergFor anyone who's listening or who's here, who like doesn't know what domain authority is. It's just you're like you're ranking your report card of like how your website is doing.

How credible engines.

Yeah. Think that you are. So it's a score out of a hundred. It takes a little bit to get to 10, 10 is like the easiest.

And then 10 to 20 is a little harder. 20 to 30 is a little harder, 30 to 40. And would you say 30 to 40 is where most entrepreneurs land,

crystal?

Crystal WaddellHonestly, most small businesses, if you can get to 15, that's considered great.

Because think about a Walmart or Amazon or any of those big name type websites who have tons of backlinks and years.

If not decades of a head start against the rest of us.

Think about Forbes. Forbes was once known as a financial magazine.

And now they're like diving into everything.

Like, anything that could have an affiliate link, Forbes is right there. Okay.

6:00In case you didn't know, that's how major media makes their money now.

It's not from how many people watch the news network. It's from how many affiliate links they can stack on their website.

Because we're not Forbes, and we're not Walmart and we're not Amazon, to build something from scratch is very difficult.

So a 15 is pretty common for small businesses.

And then anything beyond that is just gravy.

Brittany HerzbergYeah, I love it.

Okay.

To tie this back into creativity and all this stuff with website copy.

Do you feel like, and I know the answer to this, but do you feel like you can just post your copy and it's done?

And you never have to touch it again. We don't have to be creative more than once.

Haley BurnsNo.

Especially in the context of SEO.

You have to continuously optimize it, but, as you're.

As your offerings evolve and as you learn more about the people that you're talking to.

I think it's important to, constantly weave in the words that they're using.

And,

7:00reiterate on what you find their problems are.

Brittany HerzbergYeah, I couldn't agree more.

Crystal WaddellSo that's a great lead in because it's like, how often then do you optimize?

Like how often do you go back and assess the copy and, the work that it's doing on your behalf and then optimize it to be even better?

Brittany HerzbergYeah. And let's look at that through a copywriter lens because we've got our SEO hats on.

But from a copywriter perspective, what frequency do you think?

Haley BurnsOh, it's not something that I'm obsessing about.

It's just, if I have a light bulb moment, I'm a big person.

I'm just like writing things down and taking notes and then coming back at a later date.

I don't know, every 6 months?

Maybe not a set time.

Brittany HerzbergJust like when the inspiration strikes.

Haley BurnsYeah. When there's, when there is that light bulb moment. Yeah.

Brittany HerzbergYeah. I definitely do that with, you were talking about what your people say, or if someone has said anything interesting, I'm a huge believer.

Of course I haven't been implementing it. Like I should be, but if anyone says something great about you, if it's a client.

Or, the thing

8:00I've been really trying to stay on top of is whenever I guest teach or, I was invited to speak at a virtual conference.

I've been uncomfortably.

Following up with the host, whether it's a podcast host or the conference host.

And just letting them know, honestly, Hey, I'm trying to beef up the testimonials on my speaker page.

If you thought that I was a good guest, would share your thoughts?

And I even have started giving them like a fill in the blank or finish the sentence prompt.

And every single person has written back.

And that's been really heartwarming.

But also it's okay, Brittany, put this on your website.

Yeah. Yeah. Something that needs to go out and, to the rest of the world can see it because again, it just boosts your credibility and authority.

Haley BurnsYeah. Sometimes we're just having so much fun. We forget that we're working.

Crystal WaddellI wanted to add that because, I do look at things through an SEO lens.

Like I am obsessive about words on the page.

And so I love the idea of coming in with, a creative writer.

And then I also love the idea

9:00of following up in Google analytics, like Google search console specifically.

And then seeing okay, what are we getting found for?

And what are the opportunities here?

And I want to share an opportunity right now.

I was, going through One of my clients site and we are looking at, just what she was already ranking for and what might be some possibilities.

One of the possibilities happened to be one of her main keywords in Spanish.

Brittany HerzbergOh, wow.

Crystal WaddellSo a big just aha to me was like, Oh my goodness.

For those who are able to harness the power of a multiple language website.

If your customers happen to speak another language and they're in your country or your target, location.

That could be a huge opportunity for you because it may be the one thing that.

Gives you a different treat. I can't speak either.

Gives you a differentiating factor, amidst all the noise out there.

So I

10:00loved it because it was like, Hey, you don't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel and create all these new products and ideas.

You just have to make it accessible to a new audience.

So just wanted to throw that one out there.

Brittany HerzbergWhen it comes to writing for your business.

Do you feel like there are any myths that you would like to bust for business owners?

Haley BurnsYeah, sure. I think, one thing that I learned, especially from the copywriter, Ben Settle, is that, it's good to, what does he call it?

Language butchering where you just you slang and talk.

How you talk. It's not a revolutionary idea.

But I think a lot of us, if we're not creative people are inherently creative people or we're not copywriters.

We have it so stuck in our brains, what we learned in English class in high school.

But it's really okay to just, use slang and get a little bit freaky because that's like what's engaging.

And, yeah, I think that's a huge way to just stand out. And cut through the

11:00noise today.

Brittany HerzbergYeah, that's actually, so my boyfriend, for anyone listening, you probably have heard me say this. He's a nonfiction editor and a publishing coach.

And that was one of the things that we had a battle of wills for a little while.

Because he's he follows the rules to a T and he must.

For the type of work that he does.

But then there's my work and I'm writing how I speak and I'm like pulling things in.

And I'm using quotes even when they don't have the proper punctuation.

And I'm throwing emojis in there.

We weren't taught that in high school.

So it was really funny to watch us figure out how to have that meld.

So now it's more about like when he copy edits any of the case studies that I do.

He's looking for okay Because I even had to say, I'm like, does this flow?

Do I lose the reader at any point? Do I lose the main character at any point?

Is this happening?

Du-du-du-duh.

So we have this like checklist now that we run through, but it's a lot less about am I following the rules of grammar? Because I don't.

Haley BurnsYeah.

Crystal WaddellAnd I think it's really interesting what that, Ben, you

12:00said his name was Ben?

Haley BurnsBen Settle. Yeah. Ben Settle.

Crystal WaddellYeah. I think that's a really excellent takeaway.

And it's again, where SEO and copywriting intersect.

Because people search how they talk.

They don't search formally.

They don't search, jargon. They search the words that people use.

And so that's such a great takeaway where even though.

It's called something different in copywriting and it's called something different in SEO.

They're actually the same concept. That's how you will get found online.

Brittany HerzbergYeah. And that goes even back to with the testimonials, because if we are....

this is why I love using testimonials and it's why they're so brilliant, because if you're listening to what your clients are saying, your clients or students, your customers, whoever they are, you're going to get the language that you need, or that backs up or proves your SEO keywords.

So it's It's very cyclical, like they just feed each other and help each other.

Crystal WaddellSometimes people, when they hear how they talk and they see it in the written word.

Say you're converting a

13:00video to a blog, which is something I do for my clients.

We say a lot of different things.

Gonna or whatever, and I leave a lot of that in there because it's NLP.

Which is called natural language processing.

And that is a differentiator in, let's say, AI generated content.

Which is going to be a little bit more grammatically correct.

So what we often look at as errors and things that might make us sound stupid or not as educated.

Or not as qualified to be the expert.

Are actually the things that still help us get found in search as well.

And these articles, some people say, Oh, it's going to take three to six months to rank or whatever.

We're ranking in two weeks.

That's because we understand what keywords we're going after and we're saying it in a natural way.

So I just, yeah, I just wanted to riff on that one for a minute.

Brittany HerzbergYeah, definitely. The more the merrier. Okay. So when we get back to you, like creativity and inspiration, do you have any ideas of or what do

14:00you do in your process to like source inspiration?

Haley BurnsYeah, where do I start?

One thing that, was huge for me and not everyone can do this, but in 2018, I went cold turkey from basically social media.

But a big one was Instagram. In terms of using it, in my personal life.

Because I wanted to replace, My hobbies with things that I felt would add value to my life in a better way.

And especially to my career.

And I started off instead of scrolling, like reading a lot of, nonfiction.

Because, optimizing productivity, bro, businessmen, speed reading nonfiction.

But, and they always touted that, reading, reading fiction was useless for your business.

And I found that the opposite is true.

And now in my free time when I want to watch like a movie. Turn on Netflix or scroll.

Instead, I like to read fiction because it I feel entertained.

But also a lot of what I'm reading marinates in my subconscious.

And different authors.

You

15:00can draw different value, toward your business writing, for example.

Joyce Carol Oates and Charles Bukowski.

They're really short sentences, really conversational.

It's like a great lesson in brevity.

And, it's just easily understood.

And I think, while you're reading like those kind of authors and analyzing, their pacing.

Can be super valuable for writing engaging content.

And then, like more descriptive, fiction writers like, Cormac McCarthy, who died last week rip.

Brittany HerzbergOh, wow.

Haley BurnsYeah. He's amazing.

I feel like those writers who are more descriptive and verbose.

Are amazing way to plug into human emotion.

And how to tell compelling stories.

And, yeah, just plug into humanity.

And so that's one huge thing that I think helps my creativity and writing is just, yeah, spending free time writing, reading fiction.

Crystal WaddellYeah. Did you have anything B?

Brittany HerzbergNo. Okay.

Crystal WaddellAll right. I just wanted to say a couple of things.

16:00Reading fiction. I love that because there was a time where I felt overwhelmed. I love to read. And so I started reading fiction as well, but I'm like, reading beach reads, like I'm not trying to get super deep.

I'm just looking like something fun to read. And what, one thing that was really great about it is that I was able to understand my client's journey even better.

So if you can find a fiction book that kind of goes, aligned is aligned with your client's journey, helps you understand their life and where you might be able to fit in their life.

Because my client is definitely living a much different lifestyle.

Our lives intersect in the sports world.

Because I was a coach and their kids play sports and their travel parents and that type of thing. But in terms of lifestyle, it's very different. So I love that with, finding client journeys.

And then another thing reminding me of B's dad is that the finding the analogies.

Of SEO

17:00particularly, or seeing how things work in different environments and then thinking, Oh my gosh, that's how it works in writing.

Or that's how it works in SEO, or that's how it works in whatever it is you're doing that opens your mind to be able to understand things.

That much more. And then the last thing, when you were talking about taking a social media break, that's what I'm doing right now.

And I'm taking a vacation. I'm actually in Hutchinson, Kansas, where I was born and raised.

Spending some time with my parents and getting out of the echo chamber. I'm like, because I finally realized, there is truth to the fact that you train the algorithm, right?

I love being over on LinkedIn, but I am SEO echo chamber.

And I am like, Get me out of here, like trying to follow UX people and get out of like SEO completely.

Because it is just a bunch of people like regurgitating what the other person said and then presenting it as.

Brittany HerzbergYeah. I just

18:00thought about this.

Crystal WaddellYeah. And I'm like, what in the world is this?

So it's like fiction, like you said, is a great place to find new ideas and find new ideas for yourself. So just loved all of those things.

Yeah,

Brittany HerzbergI wanted to say that I'm a huge like reading nerd. It's always been my happy place.

It's always been my escape. It's always been like, I just, I love it.

One thing I've tried to do in the last year or so is I used to make myself read one book and one book only.

And recently I've been like nonfiction and fiction.

And it's very funny because I've got like fantasy novels and then I'm reading about storytelling with Kendra Hall.

No one would put those two things together and yet they work because just what you're saying, Crystal.

Like it ties those things together and it lets your brain just get lost in the story, which is one thing that I love bringing into the case studies is like, we need the storytelling because it really draws the person in.

They see the connections and then they convert more easily.

But it's just a nice escape sometimes too.

For sure.

19:00Okay, anything other than fiction books? Yeah,

Haley BurnsDefinitely just exposing yourself to people that you wouldn't normally.

Or I guess there's a better way to phrase this.

One thing that I do is I might hear somebody use like a simile or something.

Here's an example. I was at like gas station and I heard a woman, like a baby boomer say, He was drooling like a basset hound.

And it's like I would have never have thought that but I immediately write it down because I have this like huge notepad of similes.

I guess just like staying like plugged in to like sticky phrases like that in places like anywhere.

Whether it's like a waitress or, your parent or your boyfriend or something.

I love like just writing everything down and you never know when it's going to be like a huge, like a big idea leader for your writing.

Or, even if you're like sending out, like an email, if you have a mailing list, like turning that into a story or something,

20:00yeah.

Crystal WaddellOh, I love that.

So my question is for this idea of high quality content, in the buzzwords, the jargon of engaging content and blah, blah, blah, scroll stopping content.

I'm like, all these things grind my gears so bad. I don't know why. But what does that really mean?

What is that?

Like what elements make up something that is considered high quality?

Because to me, that sounds a little subjective.

So I'm like, is there some sort of formula or outcome that we're searching for to actually define it as high quality content?

Is there anything like that in copywriting?

Haley BurnsSure. I, you're the SEO people.

But, from my perspective, I wouldn't break my back trying to create some like objective version of high quality content.

As long as I'm being authentic and sharing something novel.

And, if it's something that I know

21:00resonates with my people.

Then that's high quality enough for me and I would assume them.

So, I don't know if there's some like metric.

Brittany HerzbergI don't know about metrics.

But I do think that high quality in my mind when I'm creating things, it's like.

I probably run it through my own checklist.

Am I connecting with the person?

Am I actually being helpful?

Like we know last year that Google had the helpful content update.

And there's an episode about that if you want to listen to it.

Subtle plug.

But just like remembering who's on the other side of the screen.

And making sure that whatever you're putting out there, is it helping them in some way, shape, or form?

Is it inviting them into your program?

Is it, sharing an offer with them?

Is it You're just helping them.

You're giving them advice.

You're walking them through something.

And I think if you're doing that's really the ultimate thing because I always go back to intention and connection.

So I think that Just remembering, like having that constant intention of what am I putting this out there for?

What am I hoping that this thing will achieve?

And of course, as

22:00we know, because I've said it before, that seamlessly ties into your SEO strategy.

Because again, like I, when I create content, when I create a case study, for example, I want to think of what's the end goal here?

Where do I want to send them?

What's the really big point that I want to get across?

I write the thing and then it's Okay.

Did that accomplish it? Yes or no?

Usually it does. If it doesn't, then I've got a lot more work ahead of me, but.

Haley BurnsYeah, totally, brittany.

Like being honest with yourself and that intention is really everything.

I think when it comes to high quality content.

Brittany HerzbergWhat do you think of when you hear those phrases, Crystal?

You said they grind your gears.

But I'm wondering, I just had this thought, like I'm wondering if they grind your gears because it is so vague.

And I know that you like specifics.

And specific steps and things like that.

So I'm wondering if that's part of it.

But like when you hear those phrases, what comes to mind?

Crystal WaddellI think it's just this echo chamber of people giving advice.

Like you said, without giving specifics.

And because it's subjective.

I think one thing you just said, Hailey, was

23:00novelty.

And being new and being fresh.

It took me a long time to realize this.

It took me a long time to realize that I didn't have to sound like everyone else.

I didn't have to give myself support from other people in the industry.

To be able to see myself as an expert.

Or to know that what I was talking about.

Even though it's new and it may be different in its approach it still works.

And it doesn't necessarily need a bunch of proof from other people chiming in about the exact same thing.

It's actually like what be said it's to my advantage.

It's to our advantage to share something new to share a different perspective.

And so I think the answer that I was searching for I didn't realize was the fact that yes novelty, new, a genuine perspective.

Those are the things to me that kind of make up high quality content.

And then also the way that it's presented.

So for instance, my specialty is e commerce.

And one thing about e commerce is when you're writing product

24:00descriptions and you are, you have words on a page.

That's primarily for search engines.

You're going to have your group of people who may love to read all of that copy.

But what people are drawn to primarily in e commerce are the images.

And so what I've come to realize is that compelling content on an e commerce site also includes word graphics.

The images.

Because as people are swiping through the images.

They'll take a moment to read some brief copy in an image.

Because that's where they already are looking for information.

So those are the types of, specific things that I look for from people when they're talking about high quality content.

And so I love that you pointed out that, hey, it's new.

If it's new, that it lends itself to being high quality because it's not regurgitated.

Brittany HerzbergAnd it goes back to the thing that we were talking about earlier.

Just like being ourselves and being authentic and being genuine to who we are and being willing to

25:00show up as ourselves.

If I think through some of the names that are coming to mind right now, where it's just like these people are well known in our industry of copywriting or marketing or even SEO.

And you take a minute and you're like, why are they so well known?

Why are they so well respected?

They do have the fresh ideas. They aren't afraid to be themselves.

They aren't afraid to make bold statements and have an opinion.

And so many of us are like, we're going to stay toward the middle and we're not going to say anything.

And I am like this other person and this is good.

Cause I'm like, just don't be afraid to be yourself. If there's anything that I'm taking away from this episode, it's that.

Crystal WaddellYeah.

And I think a lot of us want to stay where it's safe because when you're creating and you're trying to actually make money so that you can eat.

It's a lot safer to stay in the middle, but the future is not in the middle.

The future is on the fringe.

And so, we've got to find ways to get to the fringe.

And just push what already exists into

26:00something that maybe doesn't exist.

Or a new perspective of what exists.

And so that's what I feel like SEO has helped me do that with more confidence.

Absolutely. Because as these keywords relate to each other, I realized that my crazy ideas aren't so crazy after all.

They're actually,

They're actually connected to the safe thing.

They're just on the fringe.

Brittany HerzbergSo yeah. They're like, aiming a different direction.

Haley, you mentioned a couple of things that make me wonder, and I probably should know this.

But you were talking about like the pacing and like the length of sentences.

Do you work with brand voice?

Haley BurnsI don't, no. I focus on, just conversion copywriting.

So I'm doing launch copywriting sales pages, Facebook ads, and email.

So I wouldn't have a specific service where I'm helping with brand voice.

But, what I said before, definitely comes useful in being a chameleon to my clients brand voice.

Brittany HerzbergYeah, I totally relate to that.

Crystal WaddellSo, what are the important elements of conversion

27:00copywriting?

Could you give us a definition of conversion copywriting?

Just in case somebody is listening and they're like, okay, we were talking about copywriting.

Now we're talking about conversion copywriting.

That's like a thing that's a different thing. What is that? Can you explain that? And then, what makes up conversion copywriting?

Haley BurnsSure.

So copywriting that is conversion copywriting is written with the goal to inspire a specific action from the reader.

Whether that's a conversion, in the form of a sign up or register, just becoming a follower.

And, it's also called direct response copy.

Because you're looking for a direct response that can be measured.

And the types of copy that might be would be, like a sales page where you were, directly asking for somebody to, join your program.

That, contrast with a blog post.

Which is, blog post copywriting is mostly

28:00informational or educational.

So that's where the divide is and what I do and, content writing.

Brittany HerzbergAnd you even said ad copy. So that's good.

I know who to send people to because I don't touch ads at the 10 foot poles.

Haley BurnsYeah, that's my jam.

Crystal WaddellI think that to connect this to other things that we've talked about in other episodes, because we talk about, top of funnel, middle funnel.

Bottom of funnel.

Conversion copywriting belongs at the bottom of the funnel.

And then, that's where we would be looking primarily for transactional keywords in SEO.

Because we're searching to make a transaction.

But I guess to be, just contrary for no reason, except, maybe I'm tired from the driving.

Wouldn't we want all of our copy to be some form of conversion copywriting?

Because like at the end of the day, we're here to make money.

And that's what I hear from a lot of people is like, how is this going to make me money?

So, shouldn't all of our copywriting be conversion copywriting?

Haley BurnsYeah.

And I think, especially if you're an entrepreneur or business owner, it's always good to have a good grasp on conversion copywriting.

Which is, persuasion techniques and, just how to, structure a good argument.

And address, maybe sales objections, wherever you're writing to your audience.

Whether or not you're directly like promoting an offer.

I think it's good to just use these sort of like conversion copywriting best practices.

Whether or not, you're writing a sales page, even if it is a blog post.

But not everybody does that.

Brittany HerzbergAnd I would even say to just offer the opposite opinion.

If I, when you mentioned that, I immediately thought of emails.

I don't necessarily want to sell in every single email.

And I have been doing that for a little bit and that's why I'm saying this.

And that's why it was so top of mind for me because I really missed just writing things to connect with the people.

People with my email audience with really people I consider friends.

They're reading my stuff like they care, they're still on my list.

And if they decide to unsubscribe that's totally fine.

There's just, they're good with the information that I have shared with them and they are ready to move on to some different avenue and that's totally fine.

But I would say it's important to master conversion copywriting. And to just like you said understand the principles and the techniques of it.

And remember the person on the other side of the computer.

And you sometimes just want to check in with them and say hi and share something and in an effort to connect or in an effort to inform or educate.

So I think there's a purpose for it and a place for it for sure.

Even in case studies, like I even.

As you were explaining conversion copywriting, I'm like, case studies, they land very heavily in conversion copywriting.

And yet it's still there to entertain, inform, connect, educate. Yeah. So there's, it's a blend.

And all of the time you're trying to figure out like, what recipe do I need for this thing?

This email, this blog post, this sales page.

Haley BurnsYeah, it's definitely a spectrum.

Crystal WaddellAs I

31:00hear you guys talking about this, the thing that really stood out to me for our e commerce listeners is addressing those sales objections.

Because I think a lot of business owners, especially, smaller business owners, if you don't have a lot of experience, you're just getting started out.

A lot of times we want to shy away from the objections because there's nothing wrong with our product, right?

Like it's perfect.

Your life will be perfect when you buy this product and there will never be any problems ever.

So if you can instead take the approach of saying, Hey, we're aware that X, Y, Z might happen, but this is how we deal with it.

Or, these are just some of the challenges you might experience on the way.

This is again where conversion copywriting intersects with user experience and, just that UX copy.

And UX design of that client journey.

And so I think it's really important that people understand as you're listening to this guys.

The

32:00biggest takeaway that I could share with especially e commerce and pretty much anybody else.

Is just, how can you get in front of your clients, "no", and reassure them.

That this is a good purchase.

Or this is a good investment.

No matter what happens. And these are the things that we've seen that could be considered negatives that have happened.

But this is what you can expect, and this is what you can expect from us.

This is what you might run into.

And this is how we help you get past that.

Those are the things that I think of when I think of conversion copywriting.

Brittany HerzbergAnd yet again, I'm going to just subtly plug case studies.

Because it's literally what they do.

They walk you through, the way that I write them, it walks you through someone's experience, someone's journey.

And exactly what happened and who they are, what their life was like before, what was the experience.

And then where are they at now after working with you or after going through your program or after buying your thing.

Where are they at now?

And you actually get to take a moment just to walk through that journey and go, Oh, okay.

And it really does

33:00build trust and it reassures people. And it even sets expectations.

Like you're talking about even just like understanding the process, if it is a service based business provider.

Even the process of a product arriving or something like that too for e commerce.

Crystal WaddellYeah.

Those are all things that I need to improve personally, and so like we're working through that right now.

And I 100% agree with everything you just said that would make an amazing checklist.

Brittany HerzbergGee, thanks.

Crystal WaddellI know people are pretty busy.

And it's Oh, do the work.

Do all the stuff that you have to do.

And then fit in self care. And then live your life and all this stuff.

And then, also make time to be creative.

I am a maker and that's my business.

But for those whose businesses don't revolve around creativity.

Are there any other ideas for us?

Haley BurnsYeah. So back to the kind of copywriting.

One of the first books I read, when I was learning copywriting was by, Joseph Sugarman.

And in the beginning of the book, he talks about, like the best copywriters being people who are just generally Curious about

34:00life.

And have a lot of interest, read a lot.

They travel a lot.

And I think just like cultivating a mindset constantly.

Where you're, trying to, no matter what you're doing, like trying to relate that, to an idea.

Or brainstorm something.

Like I said, just writing ideas down.

And, staying turned on and the fact that, you could maybe use that.

Whether you're like watching stand up comedy.

Or, traveling to a new city and listening to foreigners.

So I guess it's more of like a nebulous concept.

But, just keeping like a curious mindset.

And constantly trying to relate that to how you might flesh out your own writing.

And back to, like comedy.

I think that is, another, great thing to to use.

If you're watching stand up comedy, you can draw inspiration from that.

Because the way that like comedians structure their jokes, the way that they use hooks.

And they use like the most absurd

35:00part of the joke at the end of the sentence.

Or the most absurd word.

I think that's like a super valuable lesson for writing creatively and keeping people engaged.

So yeah, that's just like one example.

And then, I think like you said, like self care is so important.

And just giving our ourselves time to just walk away from the computer and let like ideas, just marinate.

Like I said, and recharge.

Because that's when your subconscious is really like creating all of these good ideas.

Crystal WaddellSo recently I was listening to stand up.

And I was listening to Dave Chappelle for a little bit.

And then there was a, I think Conan O'Brien has a podcast and he had Adam Sandler on there.

And sometimes I use Adam Sandler in my Jasper tone of voice because I love Adam Sandler.

And so it was my best friend.

But anyway, they were having a chat about what it was like back on SNL when they first started.

And they brought up Dana Carvey.

And Chris rock. So

36:00especially Chris Rock.

What two words would you first use to describe him?

Not profanity, but it's like, what two words would you use to describe him?

I'm just curious from both of you guys.

Brittany HerzbergJust funny. It's I just remember like him, his essence, his like energy, his vibe, like that's, what's coming through.

Crystal WaddellBut what would you, how would you describe it?

Haley BurnsLike he's really bold.

Brittany HerzbergThat's a good one. Yeah.

Crystal WaddellOkay. So bold. He was shy.

They said he was really shy.

Really quiet.

Not necessarily not confident, but definitely checking with people.

Like, Hey, what do you think of this or duh-duh-duh or whatever?

And that's Chris rock.

And so what I took away from that very random.

But it was just like, Hey, even the really successful people that seem like they're all up in your face and they've got like confidence overflowing for the masses.

Might've started somewhere different.

Might've started a little less confident, a little

37:00less like in your face.

A little less bold, but you too can get there.

That's what I got from that conversation. And I thought that was just the neatest thing because I thought.

Oh my gosh, if somebody was going to call Chris rock reserved and yet you're going to call him bold.

What does that say about the potential in all of us?

Brittany HerzbergTotally.

And even as you guys are giving the examples of comedy and of even like everyday life moments.

I've been super introverted. I still am introverted, but I was very shy.

I moved a lot. So I was always, I was perpetually the new kid, the new girl.

And I, on top of that, I was like the smart new girl.

Which is not like a very good look in case you're wondering, and you didn't move a lot.

It's not like the best look to roll into school with.

I hid with humor. I made friends with the most random people.

And I did that by sharing my work, literally like what we do on the podcast.

Like I shared my work in school. Even to the point where I got in trouble once for not sharing the answers. But anyway, so I digress.

It was third grade and my best friend and I didn't

38:00realize that we even were cheating.

Story for another day.

But one thing that I was really good at what in school was like, I remember this very specific semester I had six classes I had three online three in person.

And my brain, no matter what classes I was taking, my brain would connect the dots.

My brain would find a connection from world religions to calc one that I couldn't seem to pass.

To, world history or whatever.

Like my brain just made all these connections and now it's really helpful as a copywriter and as a strategist.

But I just thought that I was like the weirdest human ever.

I was like, why does my brain do this and what purpose does it serve?

It helped me to connect the dots at the concepts I was learning. And so it made me be really successful in all of the classes.

It also helped me figure out. What is my classmate not getting?

Because I would just sit there and see the confusion on their face and it drove me bonkers.

Which is why I would go over there and help them.

But to tie this into what you guys are talking about, like everyday life.

Just being aware in those

39:00moments and being open to hearing the things that are happening.

I'm a little bit, sometimes too much of an empathetic person.

Where I notice everything.

But there's a purpose for it.

If you are wired like that.

And if you're not wired like that, I challenge you a little bit.

To try to be a little bit more open to noticing what's going on because it will make your work that much better.

Haley BurnsYeah. Putting yourself in other people's shoes is. Hugely important, especially for copywriting.

Oh, do you know your Myers Briggs?

Brittany HerzbergINFJ. I knew it. Me too. Did you really? I love this. This is such a happy day.

Haley BurnsYeah. You sound like one. No shade.

Brittany HerzbergNo, not at all. I think it's one of the rare ones.

Haley BurnsIt is the most rare. Yeah. Yeah. But we're also like the most mushy.

Brittany HerzbergOh yeah. I hide behind a really good exterior sometimes.

Haley BurnsYeah. Crystal, do you know yours?

Crystal WaddellUnfortunately I didn't take it this morning.

So if it didn't happen today, I don't remember it, but I did take it.

So how can people, connect with you

40:00if they're looking for a conversion copywriter or launch strategist?

Haley BurnsSure.

Not a big social media person, but my website is, sugarcopy.com.

Also on Facebook. Facebook.com/Haley.Copywriter.

And LinkedIn.com/HaleyKateBurns.

Brittany HerzbergLove it. Go find her, people. Don't call me for ad copy. Call Haley.

Crystal WaddellAwesome. Thanks so much for being here. It was nice to meet you.

Haley BurnsYeah. Thanks for me. Thanks, Crystal. Yeah, it was awesome.

Brittany HerzbergWe'll catch you next time. Yeah. Thanks. Have a good week.

You too. Bye.