Blogging Isn't Dead: Advice from Trio SEO's Steven Schneider

SEO and BloggingExpert Advice from Trio SEO's Steven Schneider

0:00Steven SchneiderI think that once people start to realize the power of SEO. That's where the switch between everyone thinking that it's like this black magic.

0:07It's so unknown and what it can produce. How it works. And just the total upside of it.

0:12But I think that once you realize the power of it and get that taste for it.

0:16You realize, Oh, this is actually something I going to dedicate the next couple of years to for my brand or my website.

0:22And with that consistency, it definitely plays dividends down the road.

0:25Crystal WaddellWelcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show. The podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence.

0:41Thank you so much for being here.

0:42Let's jump into another great episode.

0:44Welcome back to the simple and smart SEO show podcast. I am here with another new LinkedIn friend, Stephen Schneider from Trio SEO.

0:52And today we are going to have a long, but short But long conversation about SEO and blogging, and I'm so excited.

0:58So Steven, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the simple and smart SEO show podcast.

1:03Steven SchneiderThanks, Crystal. I'm so excited to be here. It's gonna be fun.

1:05Crystal WaddellAwesome. So of course, we need to know a little bit about you. What do you do? Who started trio SEO? How did you get into blogging?

1:12Give us all the deets.

1:13Steven SchneiderYeah. So I got into blogging in my second to last year of college, I was on the fast track to do finance, do the MBA thing and kind of go into, some sort of investment banking or whatever.

1:23Made a ton of money. And my friend at the time showed me affiliate marketing back in the day through Amazon referrals and kind of all that sort of stuff.

1:30And it pretty much said that he had this like secret side business that no one knew about.

1:32And, it's yeah, whatever, like you're probably making a couple bucks He's actually making 15, 20 grand a month doing this.

1:37And I was like, okay! Let's scrap everything. Never going to get the MBA.

1:41Let's just divert all energy to this.

1:43So pretty much did that. Long story short, he and I started building websites in college small portfolio of sites.

1:49Merged with his other business partner. And. We went into pretty much doing that full time straight out of college and had a portfolio of about 40 different blogs and grew that to seven figures.

1:59And we're producing around three to 400 articles per month. Site wide. It was just a massive full scale operation. And ran that course. A lot of fun, no hard feelings. I still golf with him weekly.

2:10We're great friends. And that kind of led into my familiarity with blogging and SEO and just learning everything about that world.

2:18And then fast forward to, I want to say it was like, last 2022, 2023. Right around that cusp.

2:24And I found or rediscovered LinkedIn. And what this new version of LinkedIn that we all know and love.

2:29And Since then, I was dabbling many people and networking a little bit.

2:32And I met Connor Gillivan, who's a great SEO, really well known in space. And he, I just hit it off talking about random stuff and life.

2:40And texting and whatnot. And then one day, I was just why haven't you created an SEO agency? And He and his other partner, my current partner Nathan Hirsch.

2:48They have a couple other side businesses and this was post they exited their other big kind of company called free up and long story short, it was like, why aren't you guys doing SEO?

2:55This is just such a natural fit. And they're like we have it all mapped out and we know exactly what we want to do.

3:00But we don't have a operator or someone who can see it through and run all of the operation side of things. And I pitched myself. And told him what I did previously.

3:08I was like, this is a perfect fit. I'm looking for my next opportunity. And they did have everything planned out. They showed me like a 25 page document on marketing strategy and names and services and everything like that. And I was like, this is exactly what I know how to do. It was the same exact system from my first company that I had.

3:24And so I pretty much just rebuilt that same infrastructure. We had it off the ground in 60 days. And we've been taking clients for about six months now.

3:32But yeah we focus on blogging specifically bottom funnel content.

3:35To drive real targeted customers, not just top of funnel organic, random traffic.

3:41And from there on out, we just try to ensure that all of the content going to sites is the best content possible for SEO.

3:48Crystal WaddellOkay, so we have to back up to the fact that you're making 15 to 20, 000 a month.

3:53With this blogging situation. Because I think a lot of times when we talk about SEO, there's so many different types of SEO.

3:59And a lot of advice, I feel like that is on the Internet really has to do with Affiliate blogging. And monetizing blogs in that way. So can you explain like how that was set up back in the day.

4:09And with the, 15 to 20 K a month return, can you tell us like what did that mean to have a portfolio of 30 blogs or whatever you said?

4:16Steven SchneiderYeah. Yeah. Pretty much the affiliate space as it's well known or, it's a dying breed.

4:21But if you ever were to Google something that's like best X, Y, Z products.

4:25So like best hiking jacket, 2024 there'll be a list of products, roundup compared all that sort of stuff.

4:31Whether it's on New York times or CNN or wherever you're looking at, if you hover over those links, they typically have a affiliate tracker ID in them. And that pretty much just shows Amazon that that website produces that traffic.

4:43And then that website will get a piece of the pie, so to speak. When there's a sale. The great thing about Amazon and most of the affiliate suppliers is that they offer a cookie.

4:52So if you send someone to Amazon and they don't even buy the product that they originally intended to buy. And say, they just go on a shopping spree randomly, cause it's Amazon.

4:59You still get a cut for anything that they buy within that 24 hour period.

5:02So regardless of that original product is there, just because Amazon is the powerhouse that it is.

5:06You can rack up a bill for someone's groceries and not even know it.

5:10Over time it's a numbers game. The more articles you produce that have all this traffic.

5:14And then as you create a really sound SEO strategy, you just have all this traffic funneled to Amazon. Or whatever supplier it is and go from there.

5:22Crystal WaddellYeah. You said rack up a bill, but I think you mean as they rack up their bill, you rack up commissions. Yeah. But I had heard that, Amazon commissions were, I don't know, maybe back then they were higher, but I've heard over the years that they've decreased, and that type of thing.

5:35And how much traffic do you have to be sending them?

5:38Like how likely is it that you can make thousands and thousands of dollars with Amazon affiliate links now?

5:43Steven SchneiderYeah, it's definitely harder than it was. Amazon's gone through I want to say two or three cuts. I wasn't involved in the first cut.

5:48I was involved in the second and third and that really hurt. That was one of the reasons that kind of first company that I was in decided to just switch gears and pivot really suddenly.

5:56But yeah, you have to have a decent amount of traffic. It's I think the average rate now is like anywhere from three to 5%.

6:01So if you sell a hundred dollars barbecue, it's, 5% of that.

6:05So it's definitely gonna be a numbers game, like I said, but you are also using the assumption that people buy more than one product.

6:11Or they don't even buy the product and they buy something random. So that happens a lot too.

6:15But other suppliers outside of Amazon, there may be a 30 day cookie. So if they go back to that supplier in 30 days that sale, so to speak, over a 30 day period is still yours.

6:25So it's depends on what suppliers are used and what products you sell. The commission rates, how high the ticket price item is.

6:31But yeah, for number's sake, like our some of our sites were in the like 6 figure organic traffic range per month. Yeah, we were definitely in the golden era of kind of what I would say for affiliate marketing and SEO.

6:41Crystal WaddellAnd would you say that with the recent updates over the last year or so from Google.

6:46That a lot of affiliate sites have been hit by say, helpful content or any of the other rollouts from Google?

6:54Steven SchneiderYeah, I definitely, I wouldn't even advise people to get into it nowadays. Unless you're coming at it for more of a social affiliate person.

7:01Maybe like a YouTuber who can, vouch for the products. Review them personally, and then direct people there.

7:05But yeah the game of strictly just writing hundreds of articles per month and putting your affiliate links in them and getting that golden, pie is it's long gone.

7:14I would say, unfortunately.

7:16Crystal WaddellYeah, I remember it wasn't even until like probably 2021 or 2022.

7:21That I had that revelation that I was being sold to every single time I went to Google.

7:25Because I took a, an affiliate marketing course about blogging. And I really feel like I know the person who ramped this up, times a million.

7:33And probably impacted a lot of these updates. Even though some people say, Hey, it's just, about, it's about the big guys more than the little guys.

7:39But I have my own conspiracy theories on that. But that was the first time I realized that, oh my gosh, when you click on that number one result, there's a reason why it's number one. And it's not just number one because it's trying to give me the best possible, whatever that I'm looking for.

7:54It's because somebody knows how to use SEO and other internet tactics or whatever.

8:00To show up number one. And then sell me something.

8:03And I always try to tell people who are in my group, I'm like, look, there's a lot of different things on the internet that are free.

8:08But everything comes with a price.

8:10And I think I heard it said somewhere, if you are not paying for something, like say social media or whatever, then you are the product.

8:18And so I love, Learning and sharing those things because some people just gloss over it and be like, okay, whatever.

8:23But from a business perspective It's really important to understand that.

8:27Yeah, there's a lot going on business wise behind the scenes.

8:31That is not Necessarily disclosed, like verbally maybe you could read through all the terms of service, I thought it was interesting.

8:37Steven SchneiderYeah.

8:37I completely agree.

8:38I think that and that was the thing that was really eye opening to me once I learned seo because You know when I started from scratch, I was so green.

8:44And he even told me What seo stood for I had no idea what that was or even how it worked.

8:50And so once I started to peel back the curtain, so to speak I realized that oh there's actually an seo strategy behind every single search result. And this website.

8:57And why it's beating this and The content's like this and maybe the niche is over here.

9:01And so I definitely take it with a grain of salt just being tied to it.

9:04Crystal WaddellYeah. I have a small group called the SEO squad where I help entrepreneur businesses, get found online.

9:10And I do one on one calls with them. And just this week, I think it was yesterday. Was it yesterday?

9:14Maybe it was two days ago. One of my clients, she was like, wait a second. You just see the light bulb go off. It's like she wanted to rank for something in Charlotte, North Carolina for photography.

9:23And it's it clicked to her that, Oh my gosh, I can control this?

9:27Like she had no, Zero content on our homepage, and she wanted to be known for this particular keyword.

9:33So I was trying to explain to her this is, these are the keywords that need to show up here. So Google understands what that homepage is about.

9:38Like what you actually do and what you want people to do on your page. And I love seeing that light bulb go off. Because it's wow, instead of the internet happening to us, we as business owners can actually control some of our, What do you call that?

9:50Our destiny, online.

9:51So I love that.

9:51Steven SchneiderYeah.

9:53And I think that once people start to realize the power of SEO, that's where the switch between everyone thinking that it's like this black magic.

10:00It's so unknown and what it can produce. How it works. And just the total upside of it.

10:04But I think that once you realize the power of it and get that taste for it, you realize, Oh, this is actually something I going to dedicate the next couple of years to for my brand or my website.

10:13And with that consistency, it definitely plays dividends down the road.

10:16Crystal WaddellYeah, absolutely.

10:17And that reminds me of another a client of mine.

10:19She's in the small group, but we worked together a couple of years ago.

10:22And she came, it was like a testimony, even though it wasn't even, planned that way. But it was like a testimonial because she said, this particular blog that I have.

10:29It's taken a little over a year for it to really gain momentum. But now it's ranking and it's ranking above one of the national brands of crayons.

10:39Ranking above Crayola for a particular keyword. And so it's that is really exciting when you see an entrepreneur taking on a big brand.

10:46And beating them in the search engine results pages.

10:49Yeah, that's a great feeling. Yeah. I love that. It makes things possible. Okay.

10:52You talked a little bit about how you got into SEO.

10:55But what would you say, like with all of these changes, that have happened over the last few years.

10:59What do you think is the hardest part about SEO today?

11:02Steven SchneiderI think the hardest part about SEO nowadays is trying to understand the strategy. And why it works.

11:09Because there's so much information out there that it can feel almost like information overload.

11:14When trying to figure out what a good source is. Or where to start.

11:18And there's also so many technical terms out there. And, you know, various avenues of SEO.

11:23We have technical, off page, on page.

11:25And just those buzzwords around that.

11:26But once you dive into each of those categories and peek under the hood. There's a whole another 1000 subjects per each of those.

11:32I think just simply knowing where to start is probably 1 of those difficult parts.

11:35And also just knowing where to prioritize your time and resources.

11:39Crystal WaddellSo do you have any tips on that? Like really uncovering where the best starting place is for your business?

11:44Steven SchneiderYeah, I'd say, my partner, Conor Gillivan has a great SEO course he just released.

11:48He's one of the top SEOs on LinkedIn. People out on LinkedIn across the board are putting out tons of great information podcasts like yours.

11:54There's tons of resources. But I'd say steer away from anything that seems. Overly salesy on YouTube. If it seems too good to be true, trust your gut there.

12:02And try to lean more toward an authentic creator or someone who's been there and scaled that. It's what I always like to recommend.

12:07If someone's suggesting that they know SEO and doesn't have the actual evidence to say, Hey, look what I've created as a result of SEO, steer away from it.

12:16Crystal WaddellYeah. And that's one thing I've learned too, like through talking with people in the SEO community.

12:21I've learned that there are people who work in the field of SEO that don't actually optimize websites, that they've never actually, yeah.

12:29And I'm thinking, wow, and one of my friends pointed out, he was like, look, just because someone's worked for 10 years in search engine optimization type roles.

12:38Doesn't mean that they have 10 years of actual experience. And, when you're in there and you're doing it every day, that's when you understand like the changes and like what makes the impact and all that type of stuff.

12:48Definitely, I agree with you to find somebody who's actually getting their hands dirty.

12:52And can show you, what they're doing and how they're implementing a particular strategy or tactic.

12:57That's really important because otherwise you could be getting information that's from 2017 blogging, and affiliate marketing and that type of stuff.

13:04And it just doesn't work anymore. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

13:08So what are your takes on AI and SEO? Do you guys use AI in your content creation there at Trio SEO?

13:16Steven SchneiderSo we use AI and look at AI as more of a tool. It's never, Going to be knock on wood, a direct replacement for people.

13:23And so what I mean by that is all of our content is still human written, human edited.

13:27We're using tools like Grammarly, which obviously offers suggestions to facilitate the process, save time when doing so.

13:34We're using more advanced SEO tools to create things like outline briefs and stuff like that. But at the end of the day I think people still need to take AI with a grain of salt, and.

13:43Kind of recognize that it's in its earliest form of where it's going to be in the next 20 years.

13:48Google is even cracking down on it. Like we saw in the last Google update. So if you're strictly just using Chat GPT to create an article.

13:54And copy and pasting and putting out on your website. You're putting yourself at a lot of risk.

13:57We like to always say that it's more of a resource for us, that we can pull these different levers, so to speak.

14:02And see how it can benefit the end result. But if you just close your eyes and start using it blindly, then you should be expected to feel the repercussions of that.

14:09Crystal WaddellDid you have clients who pushed you to use AI, once they heard about, even though we're calling it AI, they're large language models that use like predictive texts to write things.

14:19But when your clients heard about it for the first time, were they thinking, Oh my gosh, now you can write even more.

14:24And we want to see more output and that type of thing. Did you experience that as a company?

14:28Steven SchneiderThankfully not. We have a pretty a pretty black and white kind of onboarding process with all of our clients.

14:33And we won't even, Take on clients if they are looking for things like that. More of a way to cheat the system.

14:38Like we're very clear cut and what we offer, the packages we offer, how we go about it and very transparent across the board from the first conversation we have.

14:45If someone's looking to fast track their site and do that, we're just simply not a good fit for them. And that's fine.

14:50No hard feelings. But we tell them like, Hey we have a lot of experience in doing this the correct way. And if you just trust our process, The results will speak for themselves.

14:57But if you're looking for something different, like by all means, no hard feelings.

15:01Crystal WaddellSo when we talk about optimization, like I said one of my clients who, experienced some great results like a year after with her blog that ranked above Crayola.

15:10Sometimes things can rank faster. Sometimes it takes longer. But when you tie results to actual financial numbers.

15:18How do you explain to clients how search engine optimization will impact their bottom line?

15:23Steven SchneiderYeah. So that's definitely one of the more difficult parts, especially with taking on clients.

15:26Is because we know, but you have to relay that. Just that transfer of knowledge, so to speak, and how we can do that.

15:31So the 1st thing is, we always put out a realistic timeline. We say, depending on the size of the site or their authority going into it, we can see from day 1.

15:39Where we expect them to rank. If it's a smaller brand new site, you're not going to rank in 90 days. It's just totally farfetched.

15:45But if someone comes in and they have a powerhouse of a website, they've been doing SEO for maybe five years plus. And we can come in there and just add content.

15:53Yeah, you'll probably see results in 60 to 90 days.

15:56So we just take a look at where they stand currently and what we think is realistic and just relay that. And then the other part of it is just going after the right content.

16:02So I already talked, touched on briefly that we target bottom funnel content, which means that we go after high intent keywords that are closely related to conversion tactics and things that are actually going to move the needle for their company.

16:13We're not going after listicles or things that are purely just driving meaningless traffic.

16:17Because like anybody, we are business owners ourselves. And we understand that for SEO to be a viable long term win, we want results to be seen across the board.

16:26And Going after the right strategy and kind of making sure that the client approves that and that they have any feedback.

16:30Maybe they're saying, Oh, let's actually target this over here. And that's great. But just making sure that everyone's on the same page. Communication is so key to the success within trio. And so we just take that every step of the process.

16:41Crystal WaddellYeah, that's awesome. So when people are creating content plans for their website and they're, you're, you talked about bottom of funnel, like how can they tell the difference between a top of funnel? Or middle of funnel? Or bottom of funnel article?

16:55Steven SchneiderYeah. This is like where I start to nerd out on SEO and go. This is yeah, so this is where you mix between the data and the psychology.

17:03And how your customer or your reader is interpreting that piece of content.

17:07We always like to tell people, all clients that, you know, your business and your brand better than anyone.

17:12So we can show you what we would interpret as like the best strategy for the next 90 days. But. If you see something clear cut, you're like, no, actually this is a way better opportunity. We'll trust your gut.

17:21And so when it comes to those keywords, and if you're creating a strategy yourself, you really have to put yourself into the perspective of that client. Or that customer .Or the reader.

17:30And think about how are they interpreting this content?

17:33And what is the original search intent from step one? If it's like a versus article, a comparison article, they're probably not looking to buy. They're probably in that research phase. They're probably just looking to expose themselves to new ideas and just learn more about it.

17:47But if there's a services keyword.

17:50Or a anything that's like X, Y, Z services, they're probably looking to make a move on, on That intent.

17:56So it really comes down to, switching gears, putting yourself in their shoes and seeing how would I go about this?

18:02And then taking it one step furtherGoogle it.

18:04Like actually search for that term, see what the other results are. See what the competing articles are offering.

18:10And if they're offering call to actions.

18:12And you think that there's an intent from what you would personally go and explore.

18:16It's probably a good chance that it's going to overlap.

18:17Crystal WaddellYeah, and I love that term search intent.

18:19Because it's like the ultimate descriptor of how you should optimize your content.

18:24And I'm thinking of S. G. E. that search generative experience, right? What that Google currently has. And then Bing's, search option or whatnot.

18:32Do you think that those tools, do you think that they are taking away the top of funnel searches?

18:37And if yes, do you still want to have some sort of presence there so that they would then recommend you?

18:43Because I've noticed that at the bottom of the summaries, they have their sources linked there.

18:49And so I just wondered if that was relevant, moving forward, or, it's just is what it is.

18:54Steven SchneiderYeah, I definitely see it being relevant in the future. I think it's still in its early adoption phase. And it's not being widely recognized yet.

19:01I think it's still in this kind of like half in half out thing.

19:04But yeah, That content is being pulled from somewhere. It's not like it's being created out of thin air.

19:08So by having that content on your site, you then expose yourself to the opportunity of being recognized. And without a doubt, like that adds your experience. Your authority to your website.

19:18It adds just topical authority across the board.

19:20But yeah, I think how people are using it is going to change. I think Google is probably going to experiment with how it's shown or what information is displayed.

19:27And how it's actually being catered to users. Even if we take a step back and look at the original ad experience of search results. Or like that first page.

19:36It looks massively different than it did 10 years ago. Or even five years ago.

19:39So I think that as things evolve, we'll start to see how users interact with them. And obviously, Google's getting that data from somewhere.

19:46In terms of, where people are clicking or where they're hovering.

19:48And if they're actually clicking at all but I think hopefully like top of funnel wise it helps alleviate a lot of that, legwork of having to sift through articles.

19:57I always like to use the expression of like when you're looking for a recipe online.

20:01There's nothing worse than reading 4, 000 words of content around grandma's historical pastime of creating cookies in her kitchen.

20:07When it's nah, I just want the recipe.

20:08I don't want anything else. Hopefully it sifts out some of that stuff.

20:11Crystal WaddellYeah, what bothers me most about recipe blogs more than anything is when they don't have a jump to recipe. Oh yeah. At the top because really, because it's all of the ads, and I'm just like, Oh my gosh, if I see one more pop up.

20:22Like I am out of here, like actually I'm out of here now because I just saw another one.

20:25Yeah, I've recipe blogs for years have been like the bane of my existence and I use that as my excuse.

20:31But one thing that I was wondering, do you guys use any kind of tools?

20:35To help you in this age of optimization? To find like search intent or to really optimize the articles more than just our human knowledge? Is there anything that you would recommend to help someone with that?

20:47Steven SchneiderYeah. So we use a SEOwind. Which is a great tool for creating outline skeletons or briefs, whatever you want to call them.

20:53And what that does is it pretty much will use AI to. Read and interpret the top 10 search results.

21:00And then helps you curate data based on that to create your own article outline.

21:04We're also using tools like Ahrefs. Which is a very widely used tool for data analysis and taking a look at. The search volume metric attached to each keyword.

21:14The competing results for that and really dive into any analysis aspects of it.

21:18But there's so many out there, other tools that are-. There's surfer SEO, there's Moz and, there's just like a whole suite.

21:24There's almost information overload. Again, going back to that same idea.

21:27But yeah, the big ones for us are Ahrefs and SEOwind.

21:30Crystal WaddellSurfer is my favorite tool of choice. But I was wondering, because Surfer used to have this thing called GrowFlow, which I love because it gave you internal linking suggestions.

21:40And I was just wondering, is there a tool out there that does that really well? Or better than any other? Where it analyzes your website and gives you internal linking opportunities?

21:50Steven SchneiderI am still in the hunt for one as well. So if you do find one, let me know. It's definitely one of the bigger challenges.

21:55The way that we manage internal linking is that we've actually set up libraries, so to speak, of all the content per client. And then we give that access to writers. So that writers can just organically mention links within.

22:07But yeah, if you don't have a system set up, it's such a massive hurdle to try and backtrack that.

22:12So let me know if you find one.

22:14Crystal WaddellYeah, I'm so shocked. Like to me, that is one of the lowest hanging fruits of opportunities for an SEO tool. And I'm like, why am I not smarter?

22:22Because if I was, I would totally create that tool. Because to me, internal linking is one of the most overlooked opportunities.

22:30Especially for really small businesses who don't have a lot of domain authority. Or who don't have access to content writers or anything like that.

22:37Like my big push for small business owners is look, control what you can control.

22:42Because there's lots of different things that you can do for SEO. And to optimize your presence online. But really what we have to start with is identifying like what you can control.

22:51And if you can start there and do that really well, you might find that you're ranking and outranking larger businesses just because you do that really well.

22:59So.

23:00Steven SchneiderYeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, it's really, there's so many easy levers to pull. And I think like it really comes down to just making sure that your site, all the basics are covered.

23:07Crystal WaddellYeah, so having said that, is there anything else that you would add to that in terms of easy levers to pull for small businesses?

23:14Steven SchneiderYeah, I think the biggest thing is just making sure that your site is trusted.

23:18And the experience is good.

23:19Google's my favorite acronym is eat, it's the eeat. Which is your experience, your expertise, your authoritativeness and your trust. And so, That's not a ranking factor by any means.

23:29But it's definitely a good content guideline as they've announced.

23:33And what that pretty much just does is shows that you know Do you have an about page?

23:36Do you have a contact page? You have a privacy policy page? Is your footer organized? Can people find pages without having to dig through and click through five different things to find one axis of page.

23:47I think that it really just comes down to user experience at the end of the day, and we really pushed for that hard. And making sure that if people can navigate your website clean and clear.

23:56Google can too, so it's a win. But yeah, I think that just making sure that it's clean and also that it looks pretty. I think that people overlook that aspect, if your site looks like it was made in 1997. It's not trustworthy. It doesn't look like it should be visited, and Google takes note of that too.

24:10All of these high level ideas in terms of what seems overly obvious. But are often overlooked many times.

24:15Crystal WaddellYeah, I can give two specific examples of that just for my small Shopify store.

24:21Because I used to take pictures of myself and my husband, you know holding the different things that we make.

24:26We make giant wooden letters and numbers.

24:27And We just ventured out into the wedding space. And the event space. Doing like marquee numbers, super excited.

24:33We like have marquee numbers that you don't have to plug in so it's super awesome. They're battery powered and remote controlled.

24:39So the 1st thing was recognizing that the images and the image quality on your website.

24:44If it's not a trust signal to Google, it is to the user and for the user experience. And I noticed an enormous jump from one year to another.

24:53When we started featuring professional photography of our products on the site.

24:58I never realized that people just need to see that in product result or what's possible.

25:04And having these beautiful photos really made a difference. I had people sending me messages that said, my daughter saw this photo. And she wanted that.

25:13She had to have this because, your models look like her or whatever.

25:16So there's just so many connections that can be made, not just with the quality of the photo, but like the people in the photo.

25:22So that was one thing I learned.

25:23And then also you mentioned user experience.

25:25Because I think a lot of times people think, okay, I can do that technical stuff of optimization. And do everything right with linking and, all of these extra things. But if somebody comes to your website and it's difficult to navigate.

25:38Or, for instance let's say they came to your website from somewhere else because they clicked on a picture. Sticking with product photography.

25:45And that page that they land on after clicking on the picture is a completely different product or your homepage or anything like that.

25:51That just completely diminishes the user experience because now they're thinking, how do I get to what I was looking for?

25:58And that's the last thing you want a user to have to do is ask themselves questions about how to get This to work for them.

26:04Usually they're going to be gone. So I realized early on, even after optimizing, you really have to go back and then take a look at it from that user experience perspective to make sure that it is truly optimized for the user. And not just for the search engines.

26:20Steven SchneiderOh yeah. Completely.

26:21Like imagery is one of the easier things. If you have the resources to have custom images on your site.

26:26Go take photos of your team and take photos of yourself and put those on a site. Those unique images go a long way. And then, even from a user experience perspective of your blog.

26:35Making sure that is there an author section off to the side is that linked to something like your linked in.

26:40And making sure that you recognize that this is a real person behind the website and not a fake persona, just to try and cheat the system.

26:46Making sure that the pop ups are not intrusive.

26:48Or maybe there's a TLDR section at the top of your block for someone who just wants to get the gist of it and leave.

26:54So, all of these things that just make sure that if you were to visit this article or this website in a vacuum.

26:59Making sure that you're the visitor. What would your experience be like?

27:01And I think that. More often than not, people get caught up in the fact that it's my brand and I know better than anyone.

27:06It's, you're not the customer. So putting yourself in that perspective, 9 times out of 10, it's going to make it a win.

27:11Crystal WaddellYeah, absolutely. And T L D R. Can you explain that acronym for me just real quick?

27:15Yeah.

27:15Steven SchneiderYeah. So it stands for a too long, didn't read.

27:17So what we do for every blog is a snippet at the top of the article, usually after the introduction paragraph.

27:23And it just answers the intent of the article. So going back to the recipe example.

27:28If it was a recipe article, like the recipe would be listed steps right after the introduction.

27:33So that if you just purely wanted that, you have it. And if not, you can continue reading.

27:36So if it's any sort of like how to article, we'll list the steps alone.

27:40And then obviously below that is where you can get the more detailed information. And kind of more elaborate pictures, et cetera.

27:47Crystal WaddellYeah, I think what you're saying too is yeah, get to the point, cause that with the recipe blogs, it's yeah, get to the point.

27:52And the people who really want to nerd out on whatever is the behind the scenes. Backside of the story or whatever, they'll continue down the page, but you want people to have a good experience and with you and your brand and all that stuff. So get to the point, help them find what they need and let them make the decision about what they want to do next.

28:09Steven SchneiderAbsolutely.

28:09Crystal WaddellYeah. I wanted to say one other thing. Because I feel like small businesses right now are so well positioned to leverage optimization strategies.

28:18Because so many large businesses and large publishers, they've been put in the position of having to monetize their sites in new ways. That they haven't experienced over the last, few decades even.

28:29Because of that, I feel like the user experience on a lot of those sites has went downhill so much. And they can't really do anything about it because they're having to generate revenue in new ways.

28:39And so businesses that are smaller can now compete because we can pivot quickly.

28:43We can make changes on our sites that, give the user a great experience. Or really enhance our product offerings are those type of things.

28:51So I just think this is a huge opportunity and a huge window for small businesses to really take advantage of optimizing their sites for the user.

28:58Especially product sites, because that's where your revenue is coming from. It's not coming from, advertisers and questionable advertising.

29:05Like we really can control the narrative of what's happening on our web pages.

29:09Steven SchneiderYeah, I think that you hit the nail on the head there.

29:11I think that so often than not, especially with product sites, people want to almost feel like they're using that product before it's in their hands.

29:17And so the more pictures you can show or videos or testimonials or anything that really just alleviates all of that legwork from the get go.

29:25And that's what we mean by matching bottom funnel to search intent, like making sure that all of the hard work is done.

29:30So that by the time they get to that page, all they have to do is say, yep, this is for me and then move forward with that conversion.

29:36And so I think that just the better experience you can create for the end user, the better off you're going to be. Cross the board.

29:41Crystal WaddellAbsolutely.

29:42So I think there's probably just one last question that I wanted to pick apart and throw your way, but it was in regards to topical authority.

29:50If I could give you a specific example, just riff off the top of your head.

29:53Say, you have a business that is let's say, an event photographer. And they're trying to create topical authority for their website.

30:02What does that mean for them as a small business?

30:05Steven SchneiderYeah. So topical authority. Like my favorite definition for it, or the best analogy is that. Always picture like an iceberg.

30:12And so the top of the iceberg that you can usually see is like what you picture is your home page, your about page, all the bare bones stuff.

30:19But as you build out content on your site, specifically blog content.

30:23You develop this kind of below the surface iceberg. And you have this this just core understanding of your niche or your industry.

30:30And over time, the more content you have, the more articles or keywords. Google recognizes that and starts to recognize that, hey, you're an expert in this space you're talking about.

30:39And so then you start to gain that trust to secure those rankings. And going back to the event space example.

30:45It could be like what are the best times of the year to, have an event? What are the worst times? Where the best practices to avoid? The challenges of hosting events?

30:54Could be best local caters. Or, what is like the photography tips and tricks? So all of the micro categories or questions or topics that might come up while you're talking to your customers.

31:06That's all going to be content that just adds to your expertise and kind of just shows visitors and Google that you actually know what you're talking about.

31:12And that when it comes to it at the end of the day, that you're a trusted source who can offer these services and perform it as intended.

31:19Crystal WaddellYeah, that's awesome. Thank you so much. I know someone in particular who's really going to benefit from that.

31:24So thank you.

31:25Steven SchneiderThanks for not using a harder example.

31:26Crystal WaddellOh, I want to know what's a harder example.

31:28Steven SchneiderI don't know either.

31:29Crystal WaddellOkay, so if somebody wants to reach out to you and to your company, can you tell us who is a good fit to reach out? Because like I said, I work with a lot of micro businesses and entrepreneurs.

31:40So what type of businesses are the best fit for trio SEO as a client?

31:45Steven SchneiderYeah, so we primarily work with people who have a SAAS product or online services.

31:49We don't deal with local SEO, which is a whole different can of worms.

31:52Unfortunately we're not a good fit if you do have a local business. But someone who's looking for a long term partner to help grow their content and their SEO strategy.

32:00If you're also looking for someone who potentially has a writer on hand, we offer outline packages. So we'll do the strategy. And create the briefs.

32:07And then we can pass that baton over to you, and you can see it through to the finish.

32:10But someone who just like is excited about SEO. And knows that it's going to be a long kind of journey with us.

32:16Not someone who's looking to experiment with it. And probably only do it for 30 or 60 days.

32:20But also just someone who is, able to connect with people online and can drive that authority through their blog.

32:25And technicalities are always going to be one off. We can work with writers, we can hire people specific for niches.

32:30No, no niche is ever too complex unless it is. And we'll just be straight up.

32:34But we're always looking to expand our client base, however we can.

32:37And we do free audits as well.

32:38We're up front, whether it's a good fit or not from the start. We're not going to take someone on just because it's a good opportunity for us.

32:42Like we want your results to happen just as quickly as you do. And as well as they do.

32:46If we don't see it as a good fit from the start, we'll just be honest and let you know.

32:49So you can always go to trioseo.com/grow and get a free audit and we'll see if it's a good fit.

32:55Crystal WaddellAwesome. Okay.

32:56And so then I totally lied because I have at least one more question for you.

32:58But so what is like the most important thing that you think a business can do to optimize their internet presence?

33:06If you had to say, this is the number one thing that you can or should do. What is that piece of advice you would give?

33:12Steven SchneiderYeah. So there's two parts on that. So if it's a local business, I would say have absolutely having all of your local kind of checks off.

33:19So like when I think about that, it's like your Google my business, your Bing business review.

33:23All of the things that kind of show locally that you are a real business. And adding those links back to your website.

33:30Also being a few local directories, never hurts.

33:32Maybe connecting with your local chamber, setting up all those kind of low hanging fruit.

33:36Things that maybe take you a full day. And it's going to be a grind or pain to set up. But what that does is it shows Google, like you are an active source in the community.

33:44And that kind of helps drive your local presence. And then if you're not in need of that, what I would say is just making sure that you have a really strong kind of user experience on your site.

33:52And the kind of interwoven links. So like internal link in your site where it makes sense. Really clean cut navigation. Is your site clunky? Does it look well? Does it operate and function as it should?

34:04And then also just start making partnerships and start getting back links. I know we didn't really talk about that, but just the votes of confidence across the board.

34:10So You know, if there's someone in your space that you can trust, reach out to them.

34:13And say, Hey, I guess there's a way we can collaborate. And see if they're willing to mention your site on theirs. And then that link to your site is the whole name of the game.

34:22So as you start to get these votes of confidence from other people, that just helps Google recognize that you are a trusted source.

34:27So I think that those two alone can go a long way.

34:30Crystal WaddellWow, that's amazing. Definitely something tactical that we can implement today. So I appreciate that.

34:35And then, this really is the final question.

34:37Do you think that SEO is going to remain a factor for, internet searches and connecting people with businesses, into the future?

34:46It's 2024. Is SEO going anywhere?

34:49Steven SchneiderI don't think so. I think that if anything, it will definitely change. But I think just like all tech, it's bound to change over time.

34:55Google has an incentive to deliver quality content to people.

34:59And how that's being shown. It's definitely going to, have different guidelines than it does today.

35:04We even see that as it was 10 years ago. Google's guidelines are breaking down what is deemed good versus bad. And so I think that the people that pay attention to it, And can install those metrics on their site are definitely going to see it through to the end.

35:18I think that SEO as it stands is also going to maybe shift away from Google, which will be interesting to see.

35:24One kind of theory that I'd like to see play out is. It's actually becoming more of a social SEO trend. I think things like TikTok or Instagram and how people are searching for information.

35:33We're already seeing it pretty common today that, if someone needs to know how to tie a tie, they're going to go to YouTube. They're going to go to TikTok.

35:39So it might not be the same sort of SEO that we're used to now, but There's always going to be a broad range of topics where people need longer form content.

35:48You need that topical authority. You need all of those social signals built in. So if you want to succeed online with your website and your brand, SEO is definitely gonna be the name of the game.

35:56Crystal WaddellWow. I love that social SEO. That is such a cool thing. I'm definitely going to explore that in the future.

36:02Thank you so much, Steven, for coming on today. I know you mentioned, where people could find, the resource to see if you guys would be a good fit for them.

36:09But if they want to follow you personally, is there a good place for people to follow up with you?

36:13And I can drop it in the show notes.

36:14Steven SchneiderYeah. So LinkedIn is the best place for me. I post daily on LinkedIn, sharing SEO tips and tricks for anyone who wants to read them.

36:21You can just Google or, you know, LinkedIn, Steven Schneider.

36:24You can probably throw in TrioSEO. If you just Google, we pop up.

36:27We do SEO so you can find us pretty quickly in Google.

36:29Crystal WaddellAwesome.

36:30Good SEO. Thank you so much for joining us today. So great. I can't wait to do my follow up Friday episode on what you've talked about today.

36:38And I know it's really gonna improve my site and help our group and help our listeners. So thank you so much.

36:43Steven SchneiderThanks, Crystal.

36:43Crystal WaddellWelcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show. The podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence.

36:59Thank you so much for being here.

37:00Let's jump into another great episode.