2024 SEO & Link Building: Benefits of Digital PR w/Jane Hunt

0:00Jane HuntI think there's this notion or kind of misunderstanding that you need thousands and thousands of links to rank. Or be competitive.

0:09And I think that's what everyone was aiming for in the old days.

0:12But now we're looking at how relevant those backlinks are. To your publications, your products, to everything you're doing.

0:19And we're finding that, a handful of really relevant backlinks can have a really big impact on search rankings.

0:27It doesn't need to be about having thousands of links anymore.

0:31It can be more tactical than that. So I think that's really good news for small businesses.

0:36Crystal WaddellWelcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show, the podcast dedicated to empathy driven brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence. Thank you so much for being here.

0:53Let's jump into another great episode.

0:55Welcome back to the simple and smart SEO show, everybody.

0:58I am here with a very special guest today from the UK.

1:02It's the beautiful Jane Hunt from JBH.

1:05And I'm going to let her tell a little bit about herself and her company.

1:09Jane, I am so excited that you're here today to talk to us about digital public relations and all that goes on with it.

1:16And its relationship with SEO. So thank you so much for being here.

1:19Jane HuntNo problem. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. So yeah, I'll share a little bit about me and my background. So yes I'm Jane Hunt.

1:28I'm the CEO and Co-founder of JBH and JBH is a digital PR and SEO agency.

1:36And I say it like that because we've always been a digital PR agency and we've recently added SEO on. So normally agencies do it the other way around and they start as SEO agencies, then they add on different services.

1:48But digital PR was always our area of expertise. So we wanted to add in the kind of the technical SEO knowledge, et cetera.

1:55Really to bolster what we're doing and just make it a little bit more holistic in that sense.

2:00So yeah.

2:01Crystal WaddellSo when did you see the relationship between PR and SEO? Like when did you say, wow, this is a piece of our business that could really enhance what we're already doing?

2:12Jane HuntYeah, it's a funny one because originally we set up as a content agency just over 10 years ago. So at the time there was this like big opportunity to be a content marketing agency.

2:23And literally we did everything under the sun. We did websites, graphic design, social media, infographics, all kinds of things.

2:31And as part of that, we were being asked to do link building campaigns. So putting infographics together. Interactive infographics. And things like that.

2:40Anything that was needed to support link building campaigns.

2:44And then about seven years ago, I decided that actually I think we should specialize. We should just focus on one thing.

2:52Be the experts in that. So at that time we could see like the potential.

2:57For digital PR. Link building was very much a thing then. But digital PR was becoming something else.

3:03Kind of like the grown up or the big sister to link building.

3:08And it was just a really good time to be like, yep, we're going to put all our eggs in one basket. We're going to focus on digital PR.

3:14We're going to be the experts in this. So, good seven years later, here we are. Doing digital PR, of course.

3:21And yeah, so it's been an evolution in that it started out as link building. And then gradually, we've been borrowing from traditional PR.

3:30Borrowing those techniques.

3:32Fusing that with kind of our content marketing knowledge and skills, but also bringing in the kind of SEO knowledge as well.

3:38So we've got this digital PR package now, which kind of covers all three things. Obviously we building links, still.

3:46But we're also very much thinking about the brand.

3:49So how are we building brand awareness? How can we build brand credibility? Build trust for Google?

3:56And really make sure that we're not just building links, but we're also really getting the brand name out there.

4:01Positioning brands. And just making sure that they're seen as experts within their marketplace.

4:06Crystal WaddellThat's awesome.

4:07So what Okay, you just named the three things that a PR agency does. But can you break that down?

4:14Because a lot of our listeners are solo entrepreneurs or other SEOs. And so if there was like a specific task that kind of went along with those things, is there anything like that, that you can tell us about what a PR agency does.

4:29Beyond the link building itself, but like building brand awareness. And that type of stuff.

4:33Like, What does that mean?

4:35Jane HuntGood question. So it can mean different things to different brands.

4:39But essentially, most of the clients we work with, they all know that, that they want to build brand awareness. So they want to reach more people.

4:49They want to position their brand in a specific way with specific audiences.

4:55And they really want to make sure they're showcasing like all their internal expertise.

5:00So it's it's sometimes a combination of all these things.

5:04Sometimes we're working with small brands. And we're putting them on the map in terms of, we might be getting them their first PR coverage, their first links, et cetera.

5:13And then sometimes work with much bigger brands. And, sometimes we're doing repositioning projects.

5:19Where we're Trying to challenge kind of existing thinking.

5:23Within the media, within their target audience, et cetera, to get people thinking about them in a different way.

5:29So we're doing kind of portions of traditional PR as well when we're putting content together, when we're pitching journalists.

5:36Crystal WaddellOkay, so that kind of gives me a a reminder to ask you about this intersection of PR. And PR, which is like press release to journalists, or press releases to media and public relations.

5:49And I was talking about PR with someone one day.

5:51And they thought I was talking about press releases. And I'm assuming that press releases are part of PR, but can you explain the differences between the two?

5:59Jane HuntYeah, so I associate press releases very much with kind of traditional PR because it used to be, it probably still is in traditional PR.

6:08Very much, you put a release together and it's all about your brand, what might be going on what you might be launching, what new initiatives you have, etc.

6:18And I think we borrow that. But we don't really mean press release in digital PR. What we tend to mean is that we're sending a pitch to journalists, and it tends to be shorter.

6:31It tends to be a bit more informal, etc. And we're not really pushing products so much. We're pushing kind of expertise.

6:39Or we're pushing some new data or some kind of new opinion that kind of adds to a story, rather than that's specifically about the brand.

6:47So we're trying to make it non salesy. To get journalists to cover whatever we're talking about.

6:53Crystal WaddellThat's the best definition I've heard of that. That finally clicks for me, too.

6:57To understand how it works. Yeah, because it's like enhancing what they're already doing.

7:02But really giving yourself a leg up in terms of your authority.

7:07Okay definitely making that connection now.

7:09So what about the differences between PR versus marketing versus advertising?

7:15Jane HuntOkay. So this, obviously there's big differences between all of them.

7:20So, I can't comment too much on advertising because I've never worked in advertising, for example.

7:26But we tend to associate advertising with kind of TV advertising, billboards, anything big and, potentially outdoors or on a TV or on the radio, whatever it might be.

7:36And then marketing. I'm a marketer. I trained a while ago when it wasn't digital marketing.

7:43It was just general marketing, et cetera.

7:45And it used to cover absolutely everything. And now that, most of what we do is digital.

7:51Now marketing has become lots of different little disciplines. Like SEO, PPC email marketing, social media, et cetera.

8:00So you've got all these new facets of what kind of is it's marketing essentially.

8:05So like different forms of marketing and different channels, et cetera.

8:09And then you've got PR, which I think is a form of marketing. You're still, you're trying to build the brand. You still want to position it. You're trying to reach people, et cetera.

8:18Influence their decision making and things.

8:21So for me PR is just one facet of marketing.

8:24And PR should reflect what the marketing strategy is for the brand at the end of the day.

8:30Does that help? I feel like that was a really long winded like answer.

8:34Crystal WaddellYeah, it does. It's just, it's one of those things where I think that's a question that I saw when I was researching just for our talk today.

8:42Just what are those differences? And especially for small businesses, I think there's this idea that You have to choose one.

8:49When in fact you might have to choose more than one and you probably should right? I see you nodding your head.

8:55So i'd love your thoughts.

8:56Jane HuntYeah.

8:56I really admire marketers these days because there's so much you have to consider.

9:01You have to be an expert.

9:02You know if it's just you if you're just the you know The only marketer in your team or you're the marketer for your business.

9:08There's so much you have to consider.

9:10You have to be an expert in all these different things and you, there's so much to monitor.

9:15There's so much to do on a daily basis compared to the old days.

9:19So yeah, hats off to marketers. Cause I think, do an amazing job. Yeah.

9:23Crystal WaddellOkay.

9:24So when it comes to measuring your efforts, how do you measure the effectiveness?

9:29Jane HuntGood question.

9:30In terms of traditional public relations you can look at the amount of coverage you generate.

9:35So where you get that coverage, which publications. Are they in front of your target audience and things? What's the reach of those publications?

9:43So how many millions of people do they reach and where?

9:46Engagement levels. So were people interacting with the story? Was it shared to social media? Things like that.

9:53And then on the other side of things, when we're looking at digital PR, Because we're thinking about it from an SEO perspective.

10:00We're thinking about kind of the, not just the coverage, but whether that coverage included a backlink.

10:06And it's that backlink that we're really looking for because that sends signals to Google, etc.

10:11And that will build kind of link equity. And help brands rank higher in organic search.

10:17So there's the digital PR metrics we're looking at. Quantity of backlinks, for example.

10:21The domain authority of the publications where there's backlinks were earned.

10:27We're also looking at any referral traffic off the back.

10:30We're looking at specific keyword rankings that might increase over a period of time.

10:35And a general kind of organic traffic over a period of time as a result.

10:41And then on the brand side.

10:43So this is where more traditional public relations comes in.

10:46We're looking at the impact for the brand. So and there's a lot you can look at here.

10:51So I'll try and keep it simple, but it's the type of coverage.

10:54Was it kind of audience facing?

10:57What were the key messages involved in this? So how did we position the brand in the coverage?

11:03What pages does the link point to?

11:05And just generally how it's going to be perceived in the sentiment of it. So at JBH, we tend to focus on an SEO score and a brand score to have that clarity between the two.

11:16Crystal WaddellSo I'm curious, how many backlinks does it take?

11:19Or is it more dependent on the domain authority of the website?

11:24To raise the domain authority of the website seeking the PR coverage?

11:29Jane HuntI wish there was an actual figure for that.

11:31But It you know, it varies depending on kind of what the brand is. How competitive the marketplace is.

11:39And what you're trying to compete for.

11:41Some brands, if they're not in a competitive marketplace, for instance, or where competitors websites are relatively poorly SEO, for example.

11:50Your domain authority might shoot up, et cetera, with a few kind of key backlinks.

11:55If you're in a competitive sector, you're going to have to fight so much harder to have the same impact.

12:01So the resource might be a lot more in terms of kind of budget and effort.

12:06Having said that, I think there's this notion or kind of misunderstanding that you need thousands and thousands of links to rank or be competitive.

12:16And I think that's what everyone was aiming for in the old days.

12:20But now we're looking at how relevant those backlinks are, to your publications, your products, to everything you're doing.

12:27And we're finding that, a handful of really relevant backlinks can have a really big impact on search rankings.

12:35It doesn't need to be about having thousands of links anymore.

12:38It can be more tactical than that. So I think that's really good news for small businesses.

12:43Crystal WaddellI think it's wonderful news to hear that. I'm like, Oh, that's great. That's great for all of us.

12:49I have a story. to share with you. I was excited that this happened yesterday. One of my friends who is also a handmade seller cause I make wooden things.

12:58Jane HuntNo, I was admiring your background earlier.

13:00Crystal WaddellYeah. Thank you. And I make a giant photo collages for athletes.

13:04And I started on Etsy and then I built my Shopify store and that's how I fell into SEO.

13:09One of my friends, she also sells on Etsy and through a variety of fortunate events.

13:14Some work on her part and then, some good fortune.

13:16One of her products ended up on the today show. And yeah.

13:20And so when they mentioned her products, she saw, major upswing on her sales that day triple digit sales.

13:28She was super excited about that.

13:29Now the challenge for Etsy sellers, a lot of times is that a brand will tag Etsy.

13:36Whereas we are our own brands, right? Even though we're selling on Etsy.

13:41So she did something very smart and I was so excited for her.

13:44She tagged all of the people who were involved on the show. On social media with her brand account.

13:53And then they reshared it. And yeah.

13:56And so she was just singing the praises of PR yesterday and talking about the snowball effect and stuff.

14:03And so I thought it was just such a fun story because I was talking to you today. And I thought, Oh my gosh, I can't wait to tell you what happened.

14:10Jane HuntAnd I love that because that's the power of kind of PR in that, you might be sending out a simple pitch. It might be about a product.

14:17It might be about some expertise or some data or some opinions or whatever it is.

14:22You never know where that could go. We've had pitches or products end up on similar TV shows in the UK.

14:29And, that's amazing for the brand.

14:32Even if you can't correlate any, direct kind of impact from an SEO perspective, the fact that your brand is now on national TV, that's huge.

14:42So I think sometimes we get tunnel vision. And we just think about, the links, the quantitative links.

14:47And, what they do, but there's this kind of added value.

14:50That digital and traditional PR comes with. That I think it's really important to recognize.

14:55Crystal WaddellAbsolutely. I love that term added value.

14:58I'm going to add that to my little toolbox because it's so true.

15:03And one of the things that has shocked me just about the SEO conversations that I've seen online. Is that they are so focused on numerical, quantifiable metrics.

15:17But those metrics may have absolutely zero to do with actual business growth.

15:22And so again, that was why I was so happy to come across your company and Andrew Holland.

15:27Because I learned, I found someone that I was. Like, Oh my gosh, this person's talking about something that's actually relevant to business goals.

15:36And so I thought that was so neat. And so I see how those things work together.

15:40What about

15:40A small business creating a media kit or a media page? Is that a first step to, being prepared for this? A public relations campaign? Or is that something separate?

15:53Jane HuntNo, it definitely helps.

15:54Anything that you can do to provide a journalist with an overview of your business, of who you are, the expertise that you can provide to that journalist. That's what they really want to know.

16:06What topics can you cover? What can you talk about with authority? And do you have everything that they might need quickly?

16:14So say if they were going to pick up one of your stories.

16:18Have you got everything ready for them so they can just jump on it immediately?

16:22Have they got links to your social media accounts, et cetera? Is everything they need ready to go?

16:28That's what you're aiming for. Including kind of images and everything else.

16:31So yeah, it is really helpful having either an about page.

16:35Or, a media kit online. Or just a PDF that you can send out or something.

16:40But you can even strip it back even further than that.

16:43And just like a quick intro to journalists, just an email intro, introducing yourself, but making it really clear what you can cover, what your area of expertise is, and the kind of things that you'd like to respond to.

16:56And then they can file that away for when they've got something relevant.

16:59And then if they have, they'll get in touch with you.

17:02Crystal WaddellOh, I never thought about it from the idea of being proactive.

17:05Jane HuntEspecially, if you do something niche as well, or you've got if you've got a particular opinion.

17:10Or you do something differently, then that's what journalists won't really want to hear about.

17:15Anyone that's doing something a little bit differently.

17:17Crystal WaddellOkay. So

17:18the other conversation in SEO where it intersects with public relations, I feel like.

17:23Is in that link building, and I've seen your posts on it and, there's that practice of buying links.

17:30So I was wondering if you could just speak to the advantages of PR over traditional link buying.

17:38Jane HuntYeah, so we come across link buying a lot. I think it's very common still for a lot of brands, all over the world.

17:47And I understand why brands do it because it's quick, it's easier to do. It's a lot easier to do cause just a transaction.

17:57But digital PR is. is much more holistic.

18:01You're earning links. You're not buying them. It's not a, it's not a paid transaction in that sense.

18:07You're offering something that's useful. Or it's entertaining. And you're providing that to a journalist.

18:15And they're providing you, with coverage or a backlink in return. And the beauty of those is they tend to be higher authority backlinks.

18:24They tend to showcase your expertise, et cetera.

18:27They tend to be on sites that have much better traffic volumes, bigger reach, et cetera, tend to, not all the time, but most of the time.

18:37So if you do get any referral traffic from it, it's to be more relevant, et cetera.

18:42At the end of the day, those links those links you earn should last longer, a lot longer, be more valuable than the ones you buy.

18:50It might be quick to pay for a link, but the value you get from earning that link should be much better. And equally, we're talking to brands at the moment that are getting penalized by Google for link spamming.

19:03For buying, really bad quality links and they're now paying for it. And sometimes, their traffic has just fallen off a cliff overnight.

19:10So it goes like that and suddenly it's just, there's nothing. So it can be really damaging as well.

19:16So our advice would always be to never buy links.

19:19There's a much better way of doing it, it's more ethical.

19:21And it's better for the brand. If you're buying links, you're not thinking about your brand at all. You're not even thinking about the consequences of a year or two years or five years down the line and what might happen.

19:31Crystal WaddellYeah, I think it's just so interesting.

19:32Like what you said before.

19:34Now, getting higher quality backlinks, but fewer backlinks. Is more powerful then a whole bunch of really bad or mediocre links.

19:44So many people have just come into my inbox and said, I can get you Blah, blah, blah links. And i'm thinking you don't even know my business. Are you sure?

19:54Jane HuntWe get them too. And I make this stand that we don't buy links and people daily send me these messages and I'm like, you're not even looking at my LinkedIn.

20:01Crystal WaddellYeah. If you're a business owner and you're not informed of this particular practice, you might fall victim to it.

20:07Because when those traffic drops happen, I'm sure a lot of businesses are taken off guard. Like, What did we do?

20:13Jane HuntOvernight, yeah.

20:14Crystal WaddellDefinitely a thing to be aware of.

20:17What about mistakes besides buying links? What other mistakes have you seen people make

20:23in this field?

20:25Jane HuntGood question. So in terms of what you're pitching, journalists or anything?

20:30Crystal WaddellI guess what, like the type of mistakes that lead to frustration or no results, those types of

20:37Jane HuntOkay.

20:38Okay. Mistakes people often make not doing enough research before they put campaigns together. There's also everyone seems to love a big kind of content led hero campaign, etc. And you spend all this money putting one together, all this resource.

20:55You might wait a month, two months for it to go live.

20:57It goes live. And then suddenly there's no links coming in and you're like we made this amazing piece of content. Why does nobody want, why does nobody want to link to it? But it may be that it's not timely. You haven't done your research enough. Just because you think something's interesting doesn't mean other people will.

21:14And that's the biggest mistake businesses make.

21:17Because you're, because you love your brand, your products, what you do doesn't mean everybody else will. And communicating that's really difficult. But when you. When you make your campaign about what you do and your products, it loses its authenticity. It loses its interest to people, et cetera.

21:35So you've got to think really hard about coming up with the right ideas. In not being too close to your brand, that it's not of interest to other people. And we have a really nice thing we call the pub test. So if you were to go to the pub and say to your mates like, what do you think of this idea?

21:52If they're like, Oh yeah, that sounds like really cool. So if they don't, if they don't work in SEO, they don't work in the industry and you ask them what they think, they're like, Oh yeah, that's really interesting. Then you know, people outside of your industry might be interested in that content. And that gives you a little bit more faith that what you're putting together might resonate out there.

22:10So that's one of the things that we see go wrong.

22:13Another one is not making the most of your campaigns from an internal linking perspective So if you have got content and it's on your blog, for example Make sure you're linking to, specific relevant pages through internal linking.

22:29So if you do generate any links from that campaign, that link equity gets to travel through your site. And then you're really making the most of that campaign. Trying to think what else might go wrong. And occasionally, sometimes people get the ideas very wrong. Or, sometimes they're not received well, or, especially if it's a contentious, trying to think of some examples, but, especially if it's like a contentious subject.

22:55So you have to be really careful what you're talking about, why you're talking about it, and to have a good reason for talking about it in case it backfires. And we, for instance, I know there was one agency, In the UK and they did a piece about, it was looking into the future about what it was like, if everyone works from home, and a lot of people are sat on their bed working, what we're going to look like in however many years.

23:18And I think they focused on women at home as the focus for this piece. And then there was just outrage from everybody about how insensitive this was and things. So you have to, even if you think you're doing something relevant that kind of fits your brand, you have to be so careful how you position it and what that idea looks like.

23:37So yeah, there are just a few things that can go wrong.

23:39Crystal WaddellSo

23:40just to flip that a little bit, one thing I've realized about social media or just observed about social media had an aha, it's oh my gosh, like controversy. Is the best thing for your social media account. And if you can get over yourself and over people calling you names and things, that's really the way that you can grow the fastest.

24:00And so that publicity that the brand got, even though it was negative, do you feel like it still had some positive qualities to it at the end of the day or no?

24:11Jane HuntIt depends on the brand. We've worked with some brands that don't have the brand notoriety or don't have a huge reputation to protect and therefore they can be a lot freer with the kind of campaigns they create.

24:27And then, sometimes we work with brands who, have their own PR team who are very careful about the messages going out there and things. But Yeah, you can look at it from many respects. So you can have a campaign that might, go viral for the wrong reasons and you might generate a ton of links from that campaign, but what damage does it do to the brand in the process and to you personally, maybe as the founder or whoever you are.

24:51So it's constantly trying to weigh up the pros and cons of things. And also you don't know that those links are going to last that long. Depending on where they come from, et cetera. But the impact on your brand reputation might last a lot longer than the impact of those links. So it might not be worth it.

25:08Crystal WaddellYeah, that's a great answer. So one thing I always like to ask everybody is from your perspective.

25:16If a small business owner is listening to all the advice that you're giving right now and they're thinking, okay, I want to implement something that has been said today. What is the one thing that you think would be the most impactful for their business?

25:30Jane HuntI think as a first step. Have a think about the business, what's different about the business, and it might not be what you sell, it might be the way you sell it, or it might be your views on what's going on in your marketplace.

25:44If you have anything different you can say, or you have a unique perspective on something, then potentially you've got something you can start with.

25:53You've got opinions that you might be able to provide journalists with.

25:57Equally, if you're, in e commerce, you might have a lot of data.

26:01So you might have specific angles that you can send journalists.

26:05There might be plenty that you already have that you can work with in order to start thinking about if you were going to get involved in digital PR. Or if you're going to do something for yourself.

26:15What could you work with? And it might be just, writing down a few ideas on what you could offer journalists.

26:22Also, what kind of publications do you want links from? So, what are your dream publications? Where does your target audience sit?

26:29Having a look at those publications, what they're writing about, topics you can cover. That they're covering.

26:36And then that will give you a good idea of your relevancy for those titles.

26:41And you might think I can add to that conversation, too. Or they haven't talked about this. I can offer this. So that could be a really good starting point.

26:48Just a bit of research.

26:50Crystal WaddellYeah. Awesome. Okay.

26:51So if someone is listening right now and they are a good fit for working with you at JBH, how can they identify themselves?

27:00Jane HuntGood question.

27:01So they can either come and find me on LinkedIn and I'll provide you with all those details.

27:05Or they can come to the JBH website, which is jbh. co. uk and we have kind of forms that you can fill in, etc.

27:14Or as I say, come and find me on LinkedIn, and drop me a message.

27:17In terms of business size, we work with brands of all shapes and sizes around the world.

27:24But The one thing they tend to have in common is they tend to have already done some digital PR before.

27:31And maybe they want to be more competitive. And maybe they're ready to take the digital PR to the next level.

27:36There isn't a specific kind of size brand we work with. So we'd work with startups, we'd work with huge brands, et cetera. It's more about where they are in that kind of, link building journey, where we can kind of slot into that and where we can offer the most value.

27:51So I'd suggest reach out, tell me what your situation is, and then we can have a chat to see if we're a good fit.

27:57Crystal WaddellYeah, I have one client right now who I feel like would be an amazing fit for you guys.

28:02And so I'm trying to Push her your way and the next content meeting we have i'm definitely going to bring it up again.

28:08Because she's fantastic and what she's doing is so perfectly aligned with what you share.

28:15It's just It makes my mind just

28:18Jane HuntAmazing.

28:19That's so good to hear. Yeah.

28:20We work with a lot of e commerce brands and we work with brands across lifestyles. Property and home, healthcare brands and personal finance brands and also health and beauty as well.

28:32So we cover like the lifestyle vertical.

28:35Crystal WaddellAnd you're based in the UK, but you work with brands globally, right?

28:39Jane HuntYes, we're based in the UK, but we also have a few clients in the US as well. And all over actually. So we've got clients in Australia, the US, UK yeah, dotted about. Yeah.

28:50Crystal WaddellWow, that's awesome. That's amazing. Congratulations.

28:53It's amazing to meet a female founder who is just so successful, and yet still so down to earth. Like you are just such a kind person. Yeah. So thank you for being here.

29:04Jane HuntI just appreciate the opportunity and It's been lovely to chat. Yeah,

29:08Crystal WaddellI appreciate the opportunity thank you so much and guys, I will catch you next time.

29:15Have a great day.

29:16Jane HuntThank you

29:17​