We are talking to Sunny Logsdon all about using prelaunch strategies aligned with an SEO strategy!
Sunny works with small business owners who don't have a background in marketing, but need help creating a strategic plan.
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This transcript has been machine-generated and has not been edited for errors.
I mean, the way that I explain SEO to my clients is having valuable content that your target customer is Searchie for. That is the sweet spot of seo. Hello and welcome to the Simple and Smart SEO show Where we provide tips and advice and improve your website's search engine ranking. I'm Brittany Herberg, SEO copywriter for Holistic health and Wellness Pros who want to show up as the answer to a Googled Question.
And I'm Krista Waddell, an e-commerce seller and content creator. I help business owners communicate the value of their products and services through content so you can make more sales and grow your business. We are a business besties who love learning and sharing what we've learned. So what are we waiting for? Let's jump in. Welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO show.
Today we are here with Sunny, who I, we were having a conversation, what was it like a month or so ago? And she dropped a bomb that I was like, we need to talk about this on the podcast. What she was saying was, she was talking about the content before the funnel really begins. So it's like the before customer journey.
So she's gonna tell us all about that. So hello Crystal. Hello, sunny. Hello. Hi ladies. So happy to be here. We're excited to have you. All Right. Yeah, I feel like Crystal's just like already itching to get questions out. Well, Sonny, you don't know this, but I am like a diagram freak, like,
and spreadsheets are like my favorite thing in the world to make. So when you're talking about customer journey, I'm like, oh, you know, the question before the question. So just to give you a little background, like my specialty is content and you know, creating content. And especially for like e-commerce, when I create content, I've always thought like,
okay, what does my person need before they need me? So I would love to know, you know, all about your strategies. I think I'm gonna get better today and we're all gonna get better today because you're here. Well, thanks. I don't know, you guys cover a lot of good SEO stuff, so I feel like you guys are the experts.
Oh, but yeah, I, you know, I'm gonna take it back a minute because I feel like I have always been in entrepreneurship and like always kinda looking for that solution, right? It's like somebody says, okay, I have a problem. So it's like, okay, how can we fix that? Like what's a strategy? And things just tend to organize in my mind.
And I feel like that's how I ended up doing what I do today, is that I graduated with marketing and journalism degree started in, I was kinda lucky, like it was collegiate marketing for a real estate firm. So like went to work for this real estate firm. They were building housing on campuses, right? Well, since I've just gotten outta college,
of course, like who knows most about college people? Me. And so I ended up with this job and what was so interesting about it is like the ad agency we were working with, they were super creative, but it was like these middle-aged people trying to market and connect with these, these college kids, you know, which I guess would be me now.
But back in the day that age, I was gonna say, Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. No, I mean, hey, that's me now. Right? I like my daughter's closer to college age than I am, but, but what was interesting about it is all the way back then before content marketing was even a thing, I was like,
wait a minute. We need to go talk to the people that we want to live in our properties. We've gotta do focus groups. We've gotta hear what they're asking. And so that's really how I got into this. And I feel like I've been doing that research and doing the content marketing marketing since even before it was called content marketing. And so that's really how my strategies and like background in strategies started is because I was like,
wow, I feel like these are creative strategies and they're fun and they're good, but like we actually need the backbone. We need to understand what people are looking for. And then of course, like fast forward to 2010 and cont you know, social's getting big content, marketing's getting big. And that's when it really became important because of course, I'm like preaching to the choir here,
but people are Searchie. And so in order to get in front of them, you need to be putting out content that aligns with what they're Searchie for, right? And so that really is the basis for all my strategies, is really understanding who you are as a small business and who your audience is and what they need. I'm like, where did those things authentically,
genuinely meet up? Because that's where you find your audience. It is. So, so when do you consider yourself now? You know, it's funny, I've, I've, it's always changing. I feel like now content marketing and marketing are really the same thing. I mean, how, yeah, you can't be a marketer without really, really understanding content strategy.
And so I'm really a small business marketer. Like now I really focus on, so again, like over the course of the years did content strategies for big companies like, you know, best Buy and some that have aged out like Blockbuster and AOL and things like that. Oh my gosh. I know, right? Remember those? Yes, I do.
That's ok. You know that there's like an, I think it's Netflix has like a whole Yeah. Thing on Blockbuster now I'm like, oh look, nostalgia, it's coming back. I couldn't bring myself to watch it. I watched like five minutes and I was like, this isn't the same. And it's making me sad. It's So sad. I know,
right? It could've gone so differently with you Blockbuster. Yeah. But anyway, it's kinda funny. And so people are like, oh yeah, blockbuster, I know who that is. There's like a Netflix series. I'm like, it used to be a company for the young people out there. It was a real place, it was like, you know,
adventure land for millennials. Yeah. It was like you'd actually go walk into a place and look at the movies you wanna watch and like, you know, the younger generation looks so confused. Like what, why would you go somewhere to figure out what you wanna watch on TV? And you had to like pick it and go home with it and then you stuck It.
Exciting. Yeah. You're all, but okay, now, now I've just gotten off on videos and forgotten like what our question, What do you consider yourself? Like if you have a title or What is it? And so, I mean, yeah, that's a really good question and as a marketer, I should have a really short answer to that.
No, This is perfect. Yeah. But you know, I actually was working with somebody cuz I think we all need to work with people on these things and she's like, you're really a marketing fixer. Like you help small businesses go in and figure what's not aligning and why their marketing isn't working. And so that sounds a lot sexier than like a marketer marketing trainer,
because what I really have found myself doing, and what I love doing is working with small business owners who don't have a background in marketing, but yet they're at that stage where they need to hire marketer. Like they need to, the, the social media manager is no longer, you know, doing it's part of the marketing. They need the whole strategic plan and,
but they can't bring somebody on and train them, but they also can't hire somebody who has the experience to come in and do that strategy. And so I bring them together, we create the strategy together, and then I help to train that marketer on how to implement within that small business. Oh, that's perfect. Okay. So I'm dying. I'm,
I'm trying to ignore the hands, but it's Hard. It's really hard. Yeah. What, what? Tell us like, She's like, what? That's What I'm gonna do. Well, okay, so I'm taking this UX design course from Google right now, and it's a design research course and they talk about something called de design thinking, which, which is essentially what you're talking about,
which is, you know, defining problems, solving the problems, you know, brainstorming solutions, creating strategic plans, all that type of stuff. I love it. Like we are so on the same page here with that type of thing. But as you were saying that, and then you mentioned that you worked for Blockbuster, I'm like, where did Blockbuster go wrong with their content marketing?
Oh, you know, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it seems like they, I wonder, was it with their content marketing or did they just not stay ahead of where things were going? It's like they weren't on top of the trends and they let other people get ahead of 'em in their own space. So yeah, it's an interesting, an interesting study for Sure.
Yeah, it's okay. Before we get too far into the topic, I love asking people, I know we're gonna go down so many streets, I'm really excited, but I love asking people how they define SEO or what they think of when they hear seo or you know, how you might explain it to a client. And there are no wrong answers.
So what you got, Yeah, I mean, the way that I explain SEO to my clients is having valuable content that your target customer is Searchie for. That is the sweet spot of SEO and speaking in their words too, right? Because I can have the right content, but if I am using all of my jargon and, you know, the things that I know in my industry,
or even in your company, you can start your business, you can start using certain words and then you put it out there and it's like, we forget that the common person doesn't refer to it this way. And so really understanding what is that exact phrase? Like if, if somebody was talking to you over lunch and they said they had a problem,
how would they say it? Because that's how they're going to type it and that's how you need to be writing it Breach. Okay. So I love, I, I have a strategy and I love client testimonials for this because I feel like that's where you get the customer language and the client language that you need. But what do you suggest doing when people are trying to find those words and the phrases that people are actually Searchie for?
Yeah, I mean, I think talking is always the best. You know, talking with someone is always the best way to get it. Because even when people write things, they often write them differently. And of course we could go into, you know, a whole rabbit hole on how to do SEO research to actually figure out what people are typing in.
But you know, even there's just some other ways to do it. Like obviously interviewing people and asking, you know, your clients as they come in, kind of having an intake and saying what problems are you having and allowing them to tell you is great. And then even looking at Amazon book reviews or going into Reddit and really seeing what are people writing,
because, you know, people go in and, you know, they'll say, oh, this is exactly the answer that I was looking for to this problem, and you know, it was solved in this book. Or Now I know how, how to fix this problem. And they'll write it in their own words. And so Amazon book reviews is a really interesting one,
but obviously the conversations are the best. Yeah, I agree with you. Those are great ideas. So how do you align, you know, what you find, you know, in terms of like the words that you uncover and the language that, that you get from your clients. How do you then align that with the actual customer journey? What is the customer journey?
You know, speaking of jargon, you know? Yeah. It's like if you define customer journey for us. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think the customer journey is so important. So the customer journey is, what I love about it is first, if you really are looking at it from the customer's point of view, you're immediately getting outside of your own head,
right? Because we don't wanna look at the customer journey, like, okay, what happens once the customer finds us, right? That is the sales cycle. I mean, really that's what that is. But the customer journey is where were they before? Like, who is your target customer and what is it that they're looking for? Where are they in their life?
Like, what other struggles is it that they are dealing with right now in their life? And so like, let's, let's just take somebody who is maybe trying to get pregnant, right? Somebody who's going to be a new mother. So let's say that me, my business is maybe I'm a doula and I work with, you know, ladies, women who are pregnant.
Well, okay, like, who is this person and what else could they be dealing with? Right? So maybe they've had trouble getting pregnant and so that's part of their journey, right? Maybe there are some health issues around it. Maybe they're really looking into how to eat well, you know, who is this person? Otherwise, maybe there's somebody who is a busy corporate,
you know, that maybe they're, they're, it's a, somebody who's working in the corporate world and they're super busy and they're traveling and they're finding theirself themselves out of their usual routine. And so maybe keeping some of the health habits that we would want them to keep isn't possible at this time because of what they're doing. And so they, And I think what you're describing,
like in that UX design process is empathizing. Yeah, that's a great word for it. Yeah. Yeah. You're empathizing with what people are going through and what they might need. Yes, exactly. Empathizing with what they're doing and just thinking about them be beside beyond who they are to you as a customer, right? Like, who are they as a human?
What's keeping them up at night beyond the problem you solve? Because I think that like what's keeping them up at night is a question that a lot of business owners and marketers ask, but they look at it very myopically. They look at it in terms of what can I solve for them? And you know, as a small business owner Yeah. Sales.
So as a small business owner, as a marketer, we don't have time to, you know, create content around every single problem that they're ever going to encounter in life. But there are, there's valuable content that oftentimes we can speak into prior to them coming to us. So like another example is a dog trainer, right? Well, what happens before you get a puppy,
you're trying to figure out what type of puppy, like, do I adopt? Do I buy a puppy? Like what breed is a good one. So even though that might not be directly relevant to your dog training, your ideal customer is looking for that information before they need you. And you're a great person to weigh in on that because you've trained all these different dogs and you can say,
well, this type of dog is generally good with kids. Like, you know, this terrier over here is gonna bark nonstop. So if you live, you know, on a street where there's people walking by all the time, like take that into consideration. And so what is it they're looking for that you really, truly are an expert on that you can help them with before they even know they need you?
And then that brings you into their sphere, right? And then like you're a friend and a mentor and a helper before they even know you and need you. And sometimes that can help us to walk them into awareness, right? Yeah, no, I think, think it's wonderful and you don't, my brain as a copywriter, like you don't even have to create the content pieces around those,
I'll call them like mini pre problems, but you can seed that in to the other content you're creating. You can seed that in to your Instagram stories, to your blog post, to your email list so that people are aware that you're aware of what they're going through. Yeah. Yeah. Back to the empathy, that's a lot of sense. So how else do you,
oh, sorry. Do you wanna go Crystal, how else do you take that information and in your mind and with the work that you do with your clients and utilize that to help them get to know you, like you, trust you, see you as that friend, see you as that mentor? You know, I think a lot of times it,
it goes back to the empathy. I think that it's just fully understanding who they are, because it doesn't feel like you're selling to them when you're helping them. It comes back to really creating value for your target audience. And when you really know what they're going through, you're able to create that value because you're truly helping them. And when we have a desire to really,
really help our target customer or our, you know, the person we're going to, I, I even hate referring to them as a customer. It's like a person, Right? And so, you know, when we really truly have this desire to help them, and then that comes through when you're helping in different ways. So I know, you know,
I work with small business owners, like I want to help them in ways that are not part of necessarily what I do. Like one of my big passions is women who have taken off time to have kids, they've stepped back from their career, they wanna get back into it. Like, that's not really what I do, but it's something that I love to,
and I love to get women inspired and say, Hey, you can come back to this. Like, don't let your dream go just because you took a break. It's not too late. Yeah. So, you know, we just, well, it's Probably, it's probably someone, it's part of someone's story who's going to come work with you. So I think it's cool that that's in mind and then you can speak to that.
And just a quick thing personally that I can speak to is the, like helping the, the building, the community, that kind of thing. Just showing up and showing my personality. I did that on Instagram for way too long. I had all of that in none of the CTAs, I had all of that in none of the actual, this is how I can actually work with you.
It was much more of the, the cheerleader, the supporter, the helper, without the follow through. So I nailed that. I just didn't hear the other stuff. Yeah, that's right. I think that's such a good, that's such a good point. So I was, we're recently working with a client and evaluating their content. We are looking at all their SEO stats and what was happening is they,
so it's a small local company and they have a calendar of events of what's happening in their local area. And so they were, their, their audience was Searchie for questions. They were landing on this calendar, but then there wasn't, they weren't going anywhere for that. And so there's a couple things that we know, right? Is that number one,
this probably wasn't their target audience, these were so specifically, this is a property management firm, and so they want visitors coming in town to know what's going on, but ultimately they want people to rent from them, right? For their stay. And so what was happening is it was mo probably mostly locals landing on the page seeing what's happening, but like,
that's not their target audience. And there was not a next step there. And so what needed to happen is they need to say, Hey, and here's, you know, where you can stay to walk to this event, or, you know, what is that? What's that next step that you want people to take? That's a such a great point.
Yes, we want to provide content, but ultimately we need to provide next steps. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something that I, I've struggled with as well, you know, and that, I think just adding that, that question to the end of the content plan is like such a perfect segue, you know, because it's like, okay,
I'm doing this, but what's the next step? And so if you're always thinking about that, then you're always moving people through the funnel. Right? There's two other things I just wanna to comment on really quick. Number one, when we were talking about the Instagram and, you know, like building a community, you know, I've always felt very uncomfortable talking about my followers,
you know? Yeah. Like to me, that just feels disingenuous as a service provider or a business owner or, you know, someone who prides herself on having relationships with clients. So I, I love it when, you know, there's words like community, you know, that that type of word makes more sense to me because it's like, we're in this together.
Yeah. You know, it's like, I'm not like some person up on this pedestal or whatever, that doesn't come down to the commoners, you know, it's like, oh, I'm pretty much the commoner too. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, so there's that element. And then, wow, I think I might have forgotten the last thing I wanted to say,
but you know, I think I've caught myself up there. So Yeah. I'll say this too with, oh no, the thought is not gonna leave my head. No, no, no, no, no. What's going on? I don't know. It's Like there's a thought We're having the jet lag, even though Sunny was the one that was out flying it,
I, I think it's the holidays. I think our brains are just so jammed packed. That is so sad. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. I found it. I found it. Okay. So instead of saying followers, community audience, things like that, this is something that Crystal and I have really been like actively working on instead of saying,
Hey guys or whatever on the podcast. Yeah. It's like, I'm speaking to you because I love that when I'm listening to a podcast and I take that into, I feel like I more naturally do that on stories, for example, because it does feel like a very, like one way conversation with a person. So it's not like I'm not imagining a whole family sitting on the,
the other side of the, although it might happen, and I know that it has actually, but you know, it's much easier to talk to that person that's sitting over there watching the story. So I really try, and I know Crystal does, to really try to remember that there is a listener with earbuds in, or with this playing in the car or taking us on their walk.
And so I like that much more than the followers, the audience, the things like that, the community. Yeah. Although I do like words like community, I do like the word community a lot. Well, and that is, you know, as we're thinking about SEO and the questions and all of this, it's also great to think about that in terms of,
you know, how do you segment that community when you're thinking about creating content? Okay. Well, one thing I did remember what I was gonna say earlier, because you were talking about how content didn't necessarily align with that, like housing development or whatever it was that you were working with. And it, that, that aligns with the SEO concept of search intent.
So it's like, okay, as you, and then you were also gonna talk about like segmenting your audience. So it was like a perfect time to kind of talk about segmentation and search intent. So yeah, if you could kind of elaborate on segmentation, that would be amazing. Yeah. So, you know, when we think about our community, right?
We have different people in our community. Maybe there's one person who's just started their business and you know, for your community, they're learning about seo. And then you have somebody that's much further along in their business and they're at a different point of how they need to use seo. And I'm just using your business as an example. But when we can segment out the community and have,
you know, an i c your ideal customer avatar, which is such a big word right now, which I have different thoughts on that, I honestly do not think that we can have one ideal customer avatar because people are not all alike. And so, but They're not, I mean, My life, They're, I mean, I was pretty sure that if,
you know, you had one characteristic in common, you're all exactly the same. So, I mean, we're all women, so like, yay, we're the same. Yeah. Well, the best Don't worry, I'm not gonna go there. Go ahead. No, no, no, it's fine. I'll say this before you go into that, I call them personas,
and I feel like that's another word that floats out there. Yes. Persona, everybody. Yeah. But then it's like, again, when you say ideal customer avatar or persona, it's like it becomes this marketing jar jargon. Yeah. And it's like, okay, what is that? All right. Well, what we're trying to do is we're trying to segment the audience or the community into like common character traits or you know,
where they are in their business journey or in their, depending on what their customer journey looks like for your particular business. Like, we wanna figure out what are those common traits? And the whole reason for doing that goes back to Brittany, what you were saying is talking to one person. Yep. Because if you can kind of create in your mind,
like, there's this one person, and I like to do it so that it's an actual person, right? Yes. It's an actual client that I've had that I think about, okay, this person represents, you know, this piece of my community. And so what would I tell her? Like if I were sitting here con having a conversation with her,
what would she say and what would she be asking? What are her needs? And then I can respond to them. And I think that goes back to the question that was asked earlier about, you know, how to think about segmenting in terms of s e o when we can be really specific about who it is that we're having a conversation with. It just allows it to be more,
again, another jargon word, authentic, but it allows us to really feel as if we're sitting genuine sitting across the table from someone and you know, talking to them. And that's what's so different, right? And business today than what it used to be. It used to be a lot more one-on-one. And so how do we take this one to mini concept and make it more and more personal?
Crystal, you go, and then I have a thing I wanna say. Okay. I was like, gosh, Are you okay over There? Oh my, no, this is, it makes me really excited. So yeah, we'll come back. Okay, well, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Okay, so the, the whole like actual person,
having an actual person, one of the best I do that, which is why I'm like getting all geeked out over here because I, I have worked with these different personas and they, I came up with the personas act after I worked with the clients because I'm like, oh, I see these patterns repeating. Oh, I see. Even if it's something like a,
well here. So I have side hustler, oh goodness, solopreneur and supported c e O. So what happens there, the side hustler has a job, it's crystal. When she was a teacher, she had collage and wood, and then she segued eventually over into just doing collagen wood and now the SEO stuff. But it was just like a side job.
So then there's the solopreneur, which I think of actually myself, although I do have friends. You're the one wearing all the hats, you're doing all the things. This is also crystal. You're doing all the things and flip personality. You do, it's great. You've graduated. I need a, I need a new crystal for one of the levels.
But you're wearing all the hats and you don't have a big budget necessarily to, I don't know your finances. I know my fan finances. I don't have a big budget to hire like a giant team. And then you have the supported c e o who does have the team that I'm able to work with their web developer. I'm going through a personal assistant.
I am, you know, so having those different people is wonderful because I can actually go ask them questions when I need to get the voice of customer language when I have something that I'm like, what's actually driving you bonkers? What is keeping you up at night? It's wonderful. And then the other thing I was gonna tie it into is when I write sales pages,
something that I have to constantly speak with my clients about, and I understand it because my first sales page was very not done well, because I was just like, Hey, you found me. I have this thing, get the thing. And you have to like have that little bit of a warmup period in the sales page, but you need to talk to one person.
And that can be so hard for a business owner because we want to help everybody. We know that there are 15 different problems that we can help them with, but we really need to whittle that down so that it's easy to go down the page and have your heartstrings pulled on and go, oh, this really is the person, this is the thing I'm in.
Okay. That's, that's all. Yeah. Well, and that's hard, right? Because you're thinking on your sales page, I need to see myself there. This other person needs to see themself in your sales page. And so it can be tough to figure out how do I speak to all these people on one page? Sometimes you can have multiple sales pages,
Right? Yeah, Yeah, yeah. You can. But I just, I mean, you guys, these, these insights are just so amazing, you know, because they're so thoughtful and you know how you are, you're talking about segmenting your audience into common traits. That's just such a, like a paradigm shift of, you know, like, you know,
that you actually have to have just one person, you know? And I love that because people can be very, very different what they, where they come from, where they, what they believe, all these type of things. But you know, the common traits that they share when, you know, presented with this product versus this other scenario, you know,
that they could be in multiple different, you know, segmentations. And so I just think that's so interesting of just identifying common traits. I love that so much. Yeah. So thank you. And you have to know your audience in order to do that. Like, I think about one client that I worked with that does skincare products, and initially it was just kind of about,
okay, well I'm putting out these products that don't have any chemicals in 'em. You know, they're, they smell really great, they're handmade. And then she started getting feedback from her clients that like, it was helping with rosacea and some very specific things and like eczema. And so then it's like that became one of her client segments where she's speaking more to that.
And then another client, you know, another segment, it's the why did they buy, right? And so another segment was buying mostly for gifts. And so then she was speaking to gifts. And so as we get to know our audience, as we're able to figure out how, what are those needs? What are the traits? What does that segmentation look like?
And one of the things that I see early business owners trying to do is to figure that out too early. And it's not based on actual information. We have to get out there and we have to figure out how people are speaking about it, what people are coming back to tell us in order to then backtrack and go, okay, here's what I need to be talking about.
Here's how I can provide that valuable information. And then it all backs up into the seo, right? Yeah. I have a quick story about that because when I very first started my Etsy shop back in 2013, my second sale was to a, a person who was buying a jersey number collage for a basketball player. And at the time, I was making photo collages with wooden letters that I purchased from like a craft store like Michael's or AC Moore or something like that.
And you know, when I sold the product, I said, oh yeah, no problem. I can put this on a wood number. But guess what, when I went to the craft store at this time, they didn't sell wood numbers. And so I'm panicking because this is my second sale, you know, of all time. And I told this person I would do it.
And not doing it was not an option. So eventually I had my father-in-law cut the number. He happens to be like this wood artisan or something. I had no idea, you know, but my husband said, have Tom cut it for you? I was like, okay, cool. He cut it. I created the collage digitally, you know,
everything was magic. And I sent it to the person, they loved it. I didn't make another number of collage for like two years, or like 18 months, 12 to 18 months. But what had happened was, inadvertently I had fallen into the very niche that I dominate today, that I was wasted so much time because I had it in my head.
Like, oh, everybody else is making photo collages on wooden letters. I'm gonna make photo collages on wooden letters too. But who am I, I am an athlete, you know, I'm a former athlete. You're still an athlete. Yeah, I'm, I'm a coach, you know, I coach high school volleyball, I coach club volleyball. That's how I started my business,
you know, is making these gifts for my players. And I totally miss that opportunity for a while. So any, any friend right now, like if you are listening to this and you have had something like this pop up in your business, you know, if it, if it gives you a little check like, whoa, this is new, or this is interesting,
or this is a little twist on this thing that I never really thought about, give it another look, you know, give it another look. And just maybe it might be the universe saying, Hey, here's an opportunity for you here. Your customers want this from you. Yeah. Well, and even that's exactly what's happening with my launch. Because two and a half weeks ago,
I had a copywriter friend come to me and she's like, Hey, have you ever thought of creating a case study training for copywriter? Like, sh no, she didn't say that. Showing copywriters how to write case studies like you do. And so instantly I was like, okay, study training. And here we are, two and a half later,
I'm mid, mid-launch. I've already, not mid, I'm still pretty early cuz I'm gonna do a longer one. But I've already sold a couple of things and people are coming to find me now for one-on-one client work. And I wasn't even anticipating that being part of this, this whole thing. So it's really cool. But yeah, listen to what your people are saying for sure.
Yeah. Yeah. Because sometimes they don't even know their needs, you know, and they, you really have to give them an option. And then here this is act, this is what I need. But they might not have said it if you didn't have that first option, which goes back to Crystal, you said you wasted time. Like I would say there's no wasting time.
I agree Like that there's, I love you guys, But there's you, it's finding your niche. You know, it's, it's try. If you hadn't ever tried doing it with the wood letters and doing it the way you originally started, you would've never gotten to where you are now. Right? We have to get out there and try it and,
and just, just learn through our experience. So I have a question for you related to this, because I am just imagining, and even I'm reflecting back on being a a, a newer business owner, how do you suggest the newer business owners get their message out, get their offers out without being too broad and I'm gonna help everyone, but also giving themselves somewhat of a focus,
somewhat of a niche and letting them collect that information. Does that make sense? Yes. Yes. Let me, let me add on to that though, because you know what, it sounds like it's like the advice is okay, you know, niche down, but give them options. Yeah, yeah. But don't give them too many options or you'll confuse 'em.
And it's like, So how do we avoid That? Navigate that. Yeah. I, yeah, I think the nicheing down is, it's hard because sometimes we just don't know where to niche down. And so, you know, for the beginning business owner, I think that it's important for them to start with what they feel passionate about and it will come.
And not to be scared to go out, not to be scared. And I'm talking to myself here too, I swear. But you know, don't be scared to just put it out there and let it fail because you can't, you can't predict what's going to work and what's not. And so you just start putting it out there. And so specifically,
you know, it's like somebody who's brand new, you go out and you start your social channels. And one of the things that I think people make a mistake in doing at the beginning is that they go to too many places. And so I like to say, go to the social channel that you naturally feel comfortable on and that's where you start. Don't try to cover all of them,
it's just too much as you're starting your business. But go to one and it has to be one where you feel comfortable on and where you think your target audience is, right? Otherwise you're just wasting time and use them as a test bed, just start posting and you can start to see, okay, this is resonating, this is not resonating. And that begins to send you in a certain direction.
And yeah, you, you might go down that direction and go, oh wait, no, that wasn't it. But again, it's not wasted time. It's, it's a learning process. Yes. I love this so much. Yes. I'm just nodding along cuz I love it. Well, I love Crystal. You had a question I, and you said once,
so this is back to talking about pre-awareness, right? When people are going along, they may not know that they need you, but at this point we're just meeting them like with information that we can share that is relevant to what we do and valuable to them, right? And so once we meet them in that stage, so I think your question was,
once you meet with them before that they know that they need you, like what are some ways to sequence content to move them into your sales funnel? And what I love to do is I love to with my clients and in my course rise and repeat, we draw a customer journey and we literally go through and we think about the questions that people are asking at each stage.
And this is a great time to go back into that, you know, specific person, that persona or you know, again, real person crystal, like what was Crystal, what were the questions that she was asking, you know, when she was at this stage, okay. And then she moved into awareness. What were the questions that she was asking at that stage?
And I encourage my clients to just create a list of questions that walks you all the way around the customer journey, all the way through that nurturing stage. Like, okay, great, we're done with our customer testimonials, now what do I do? You know, so it's like, what is even that post engagement question that they're asking or questions that they're asking?
And then that's then, then after we go and we look at the questions, we figure out, okay, how can I provide value at each one of these questions? And then that really becomes your funnel. Not only does it become your funnel, it also takes you beyond your funnel because that's also really super important. And a lot of people end at the bottom of the funnel,
you know, let's just, okay, the customer drops out, our client or whoever drops out at the bottom of the funnel. And then it's like, okay, hope you come back. Well, no, we nurture them, let's bring them back. You know? And so when you really think about it as this circle that keeps going round and round and you think about the questions they're asking and being valuable to them at every single stage,
I think that naturally happens that you're bringing them back in. I love that. And I have to say, so I, I'm a copywriter by way of massage therapy and with my massage practice, it was much easier for me. I don't know if it was because it's in person, if it was some, just because I had done it for so many years.
But me being able to continue nurturing that relationship just came so much more naturally than it did initially with the SEO copywriting stuff. So it's been, there's been a lot of times where I'm just like, okay, this is what I'm doing with, with my online business, what would I do with my in-person business? And then like, how can I bring that in?
And I actually went through a program with Brittany McBean where we were focusing on building a premium copywriting business and there was a copywriter in there who specifically focused with, I might be messing up the name, but like basically getting the people to continue working with you. So not necessarily your retainer clients, but how are you getting these people in the door, giving them a great experience and just staying in touch with them so that whenever they need something,
they know they can come to you. And even if it's not, this is what I love cuz this is where I thrive, even if it's not with me, go talk to Crystal, go talk to Sonny. Yes, go talk to this person. Go talk to that person. Like I am, I think of it like a wheel and I'm like the,
what is it, like the hub in the center. And then I like, I know all the folks, so I know All the folks, which is super, which is valuable and it keeps people coming back to you so that you can, you know, also help them and then your top of mind when they're friend needs you. It just, it's,
it's fantastic to be valuable at every stage. But that makes me think of, you know, just networking, you know, because locally, you know, there used to be, you know, in-person chamber of commerce for brick and mortar businesses and that type of stuff. And that's, that's how that naturally happened. Yeah. And as online business owners,
I feel that we can be so isolated, you know, is one of the reasons why we started this podcast is because you're, you're building your business, but it feels like you are, you know, on your island. And you may be able to see other people on their islands, but you're not really sure if they want visitors or, you know,
like how that all works out. This Was a, this was a lot of your story, so that's something that you tie into it. I tie into it with the massage practice, but you definitely have the empathy because you were there, you were that person. Oh yeah, yeah. And then I met b and that made all the difference. But I wanted to also say that when,
you know, when we were talking about, you know, finding the questions to build out the customer journey, you know, once I kind of found my niche, you know, like you said, I went down the wrong path and then I came to this place, or I found my niche with these sports moms, you know, I realized all the time that people said,
go to a Facebook group, you know, and learn about your person there. I was always in the wrong Facebook group. I don't know what Facebook group I was looking in before for wooden letters, but it was not the right one. But now that I'm in the right Facebook groups, oh my goodness, I, I find out so much about these people,
you know, like, okay, what problems are they facing as mothers? You know, and you know, from the cost of things for their children to play sports to the, the, the pain of not making a team to, you know, their kid then graduating and you know, having a senior night, which is where I typically come into the situation.
But I mean, it has been such, such an an like an enjoyable thing to learn about her, you know, and to learn about like why she feels the way she does and what things make her feel a certain way. And even what are the coolest things for her to buy her kid right now? You know? But I finally, I finally can see that versus this is just somebody I want to buy my stuff,
you know? Yeah. That maybe I have a relationship with for a few weeks. Yeah, yeah. Makes it personal And that makes all the difference. And another thing Yeah, go ahead. Business. Well, business is personal, you know, everybody says business is not personal and I'm sorry, you know, like my business is an extension of who I am,
you know? Yeah. And I take myself pretty seriously and I take other people pretty seriously. So, you know. Yeah. For me, business is personal. No, it is. The other thing I was gonna say is that with it being personal, you end up just naturally in using your personality. And I think that's something else too that maybe even that comes out in like the pre precon of just showing up and just being like,
this is who I am, this is why I'm here, this is why I care about this and why I've even started this. I don't know. Do you feel like that also comes into the early content? Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's our story, right? And there's so much talk right now about telling our stories, and I think that is why,
is because it shows people that, oh, you're, you're more than a marketer. You're more than, you know, whatever it is that you do professionally. It's like, here's why I am here. You know, it's crystal, you can relate to all of these people who are athletes and athletes moms, and you know what that, the special moments and the hard moments,
and that's what makes you good at what you do. And so I think that that backstory is super important. And yeah, it definitely goes into the pre-con because somebody might be Searchie for something that is a little bit different, but when you're writing about your personal story and you know, how maybe you handled some of the struggles of being a young athlete,
then somebody might stumble across that and never, they weren't looking for what you're selling. They just stumbled across it and read your story and could completely relate. And so now they know you. Yeah. There's two other pieces to that that, you know, I kind of uncovered through this whole process. The first one was that because my mother left me when I was a baby,
you know, or about, you know, six months old or whatever, due to some physical challenges that I was having, you know, there was always this piece of me that, you know, really desired a mother that cared about me, you know, or a mother that wouldn't leave or whatever. So, you know, I, I had,
you know, a marketing mentor that actually turned that around for me and said, Hey, you know, because that happened to you, you actually are an expert in what makes a great mother. Yeah. You know? And so I love celebrating mothers, you know, and I love celebrating mothers celebrating their kids because I'm like, this is really important.
And a lot of times when women become mothers, they don't feel as special anymore. What they're doing isn't as celebrated by the world. You know, like you were talking about women going back into the workplace or whatever, you know, I have great empathy for them as well because I was also there. But it's like, no, your, your value and what you have poured into this child and what you have sacrificed for this child to be successful as an athlete,
I mean, that's everything that is so worth celebrating. So that was something that I realized throughout this journey. And it was very, you know, healing for me, you know, selfishly as a business owner. And then the second thing was my junior year in high school, my whole identity was an athlete and I got hurt and I had a very serious a c l injury and all this type of stuff.
And all of a sudden it was like, who am I? Yeah. Well, there's a lot of athletes currently who are struggling with that identity crisis of who am I if I'm not a basketball player, if I'm not a volleyball player, if I'm not playing football anymore. Like, who am I? And that's something that as a family is difficult to go through too.
So that's my other passion project that's related to the sports jersey numbers is athlete mental health. I'm very passionate about all of those things, if you can't tell, you know, and so, yeah, content has given me a way to connect with people on that level. And I know not everybody wants those, you know, that type of connection or,
you know, like all of that kind of mess in their content. But I feel like it's really important to say that sometimes that other personal part of us, you know, can lead to connections with our clients where they're at. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it, it connects how we respond to our clients too, I think. Yeah.
Because we're able to just connect with them on a different level. Like for me, when I meet a woman who is saying, you know, oh, I always really wanted to do this, and then I ended up doing this, and you know, now I just feel like, oh, whatever, like, I, that that time has passed.
I'm so passionate about saying, no, it hasn't passed. Like, let's, let's get you out there, you know? And it's like, yes, it's in my sweet spot. And it's funny because I think sometimes people are like, wait, why are you so willing to give me all this information? I'm like, I am so passionate about you succeeding,
you know, in what, in making those dreams come true. Right? It sounds so cheesy, but it's, it really is. It's like, hey, there's still opportunity to do that. And when we have that sort of passion, it makes our day-to-day of what we do so feel so different. Can you talk to that person then right now?
I mean, I think, I think you're listing right now. Like, I think you're wondering, you know, can I do this? You know, is there room for me? Am I too late? You know, and I'm just thinking, we have you here, sunny, you know, your, your name is so perfect for you, you Know,
know. Yes. It's, thank You. You know, what, what can we tell, what can we tell her right now? You know? Yeah. If she's feeling that. Yeah. I would want to say that that fire that's in your heart, that idea that keeps coming back into your mind, that that fire is there for a reason.
I believe that we are all mount meant to do certain things. We all have talents that I would say are God-given, and that is our purpose. And you know, it, it's not even, it's not always something big. I think when people talk about purpose, it feels like, oh, I need to go, you know, start a nonprofit.
I need to do something giant. But, you know, it could be on such a different scale. It can just be that your purpose is to get out there and, you know, spread your light, spread your talent to other people on a daily basis. And if you feel like, you know, wow, I got stuck in this accounting job and this just doesn't fill me up,
you know, but here I am and how could I start something different because I have a family to support, or, you know, I just don't have time. Because when I'm not doing, you know, when I'm not at the office or behind my desk, I'm picking up my kids. I'm doing all of these things, but that fire is there.
I, I believe it's there for a reason. And I believe that, you know, you were meant to do more. And that when we're, when we know that we are meant to do more, when we have that fire, when there's a will, there's a way. And so I really believe that I want you to just step out and say,
you know what? I, I'm not going to, I'm not going to say that this isn't possible. I'm not going to say no to this. I'm just going to pull the thread. Like, what would it happen? What would happen if I just pulled the thread and took like one little step in that direction and another little step in that direction?
And I believe that opportunity opens up when we're moving in the right space and in the right place. I love that so much. So just to give an example for, from my life this week about like, the little things that you can do, and then I have a funny share, but the, the little things that you can do, it has been,
this also kind of sounds silly, but it has been so disappointing for me to go on Instagram to email someone to reach out and have zero response. Hmm. And it could be the same person. Like there's a couple times it's, this has happened, same person. And I'll say something and then I'm like, okay, they're probably busy. Like they're super popular.
Let me go try again. Nothing. Let me try again. So I, I was like I said, disappointed, just sad. You, it does leave you feeling pretty alone when you have this question and you feel like this is the person that you've seen talking about the thing and you're like, Hey, can you help me with the thing? So this week twice,
I've had people a lot more than that, but two, two people specifically have been in my dms in Instagram. They've asked me questions and I immediately hop on when I see it and leave a voice memo or send them someone else's profile or send them a link or whatever, just answer their question. And these two people have been like, oh my gosh,
I can't believe that you responded and this was so nice. And I'm like, look, this is really important to me. I will be answering your question, or I will be pointing you in the right direction if I can't help you. Because I don't want someone to not, I'll say it a little bit reverse. I feel like it's incredibly important to make someone feel seen,
heard, and understood. And if you do that for them, they're gonna love you. And I don't do that so that someone cares about me. I do that because I don't want them to feel how I felt. Hmm. So it's so cool that like we all have these different little mini mesh mini missions of what's important to us. And that plays into how we show up,
where we show up, the people that we show up for, like everything. It touches everything. Yeah. So my little funny share is that you were saying like just share things, talk about things. You never know where you're gonna end up. I ended up in a glamor article about, wait, you're ready for it? Women in Migraines. Oh my gosh.
And I found it, it was a, it was a horror response that I, or horror query that I responded to. And I didn't know that I'd actually went live. So I'm just googling my name yesterday, cuz I think it came up either with something Crystal and I were talking about or something else. I can't remember what. No, it was Erin a li anyway,
I googled my name and I'm scrolling through and I was like, oh, I was on the podcast. No. Did I freeze? You froze. You froze for a minute. Your back. I'm back. So I, I'm scrolling through and I'm like, I showed up on that podcast. I was in this article, and then I'm like, wait,
glamor, I was in glamor. Let me just go look. It was hilarious. You didn't Even know. No, and the worst, worst slash best part is, it's one of the, it's a not cute memory. I'll have to, I'll have to link to it maybe in the show notes, but it's about famous. Yeah. For a very fun reason that I never wanted to be famous.
I feel like I shouldn't even say anything. I'll just link to it. Maybe we'll go read it. Yes, yes. Yeah. We all need to go read. Are they even allowed to do that? I mean, I, I guess if you put it out there on social media, yeah. They can just, Oh, it was a query that I responded to.
I just didn't know that the article went live. Yeah, no, I was very specifically like, here's my story and my name and all my information. I just didn't know it was live. Oh my gosh, that is so funny. Okay. Yes, please link to it. We all, she's like, Yeah. And she's like, yeah,
link to me glamor so I can get that, you know, SEO juice and domain authority going. I Know. Well, it only just published I think in November and it's already on page one, so Yes. I mean, clearly it's doing good things. Yeah, thanks glamor. Yeah. Well, and when we, when we put ourselves out there,
I mean, you just never know what, what's going to result from that. And so, yeah, to that person that is thinking, I feel stuck. It's like, put it out there, you know, Hey, I've always had this dream to do X, Y, z. Put it out there. Somebody might say, oh my gosh,
really? You know, let's, I have a connection. You just never know. Yeah. I love this. Yeah, I love the idea of the customer journey. I gotta go back to that, that question. What was the question that we said that after you, you create it, then it's like, okay, then what? Is that what we said?
Because I felt like that was such an important thing. What's next? I wanted to make sure that what's next? No, what's next? Yes. Yes. Okay. So after doing this, okay, sunny, what's next? What's next for people if they wanna, you know, get in touch with you and, and possibly work with you and that type of thing.
What's next? Yeah, the best thing to do right now is probably to go to Instagram or LinkedIn and connect with me there on Instagram. We can put it in the show notes cuz my last name is tricky is Sunny dot Logden. And I'm also on LinkedIn, sunny Logden. And I am actually going to be doing something in January that I'm really excited about and I haven't nailed down all the details to share with you today,
but maybe we can come back and add them in the show notes. But I am going to be working with small businesses in January, just doing a five day challenge. Let's get your marketing strategy together for 2023. So as a fellow small business owner, I know how it's just, it's tough because for me right now, I am working on finishing everything up for my clients.
And so I have not sat down just honesty here, here I am telling everybody else to do it, but I, I haven't had time to sit down and th think through my 2023 strategy. And I promise you that when I'm gonna be doing that is January 2nd, or second week of January, sorry, not January 2nd because I'm just gonna be getting my kids back into school and getting my head on straight again.
But the second week of January, I'm going to sit down and say, okay, yo, yes, it's already January, but that's okay. I can get everything set up for the rest of the year and be in a really good place. And I decided, you know what? There's so many of my friends, my colleagues, my clients who are in the same boat and yes,
we'd all like to pretend like we had January planned out back in November, but we didn't. And so I decided that I'm going to do a, you know, little challenge for all of us that are, I don't wanna call us procrastinators, we're not procrastinators, we just had to prioritize elsewhere. And so that was a long answer to your question.
Would love for people to get in touch with me on Instagram, on LinkedIn, join the challenge in January and then, you know, like Brittany was saying, if you have a question, if you have a dream, like reach out to me. Like just state it, put it out into the universe. Say, you know what? I have been stuck and here's where I wanna change dm.
All of us let us know. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to hear from people. I'm so coming to that content creation challenge situation and we'll make sure, we'll make sure that we'll link it in the, sometimes we come back and we add links to shows, so definitely come back and check the show notes whenever this thing goes live. Yes. Perfect.
And this is a common theme that we've been hearing from other business owners that we're, we've been talking to. Yes. That it's just you're, when you are prioritizing client work, you know that sometimes your own stuff gets pushed to the back burner. And so it, it's nice to have like a designated amount of time to just really focus on like what's happening in your business before you go back out and make other people's businesses so amazing.
You know? Right. So yeah, we have to deliberately carve out time for our own businesses and that's definitely a tough thing being an entrepreneur. So second week of January, that's when I'm doing it. And You'll be in a room of other people just like you, so you're not gonna feel Alone. Exactly right. I'm So excited for This. Yay.
Me too. Amazing. Well, thank you Sunny for being with us today. Thank you. We'll drop all that information in the show notes and yeah, we'll see y'all next time. This has been so much fun. I've loved our conversation. Thank you ladies for having me. Yeah, thanks for being here. Thanks for joining us today. If you like this info,
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