The Simple and Smart SEO Show

Creative SEO and Conversion Copywriting w/ Haley Burns

August 02, 2023 Haley Burns Season 2 Episode 63
Creative SEO and Conversion Copywriting w/ Haley Burns
The Simple and Smart SEO Show
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The Simple and Smart SEO Show
Creative SEO and Conversion Copywriting w/ Haley Burns
Aug 02, 2023 Season 2 Episode 63
Haley Burns

Send me a text!

Today we talk to conversion copywriter Haley Burns and explore how to implement creativity to improve website traffic and engagement.

Connect with Haley:
Website
LinkedIn
Facebook

Like this episode? Sign up for the messaging masterclass w/ Marisa: Sept 26 @1pm, Sept 28 @ 8pm, or Sept 30 @10am.

Key Takeaways from this episode:

1. It's important to embed keywords into creative, engaging language and content.

  • Surfer SEO and Jasper can serve as beneficial tools to generate new ideas.
  • Continually optimize website content from both an SEO and copywriting perspective.

2. Haley emphasized unique and refined writing for an authentic brand voice.

  • Draw inspiration from reading fiction. (B also mentioned a nonfiction book to improve storytelling Stories that Stick.)
  • Engage with diverse people and note their unique phrases.
  • Take breaks from social media.

3. Is there a specified formula or objective in copywriting for high-quality content?

  • Haley: Sharing something new that resonates with the target audience suffices.
  • B defined high-quality content as helpful.
  • Crystal believes sharing a fresh and genuine perspective = high quality.
  • For e-commerce, compelling content can contain word graphics and images.
  • Haley: intention and honesty as crucial elements to high-quality content.

4. Conversion copywriting addresses objections to sales success.

  • Mastering conversion copywriting can lead to more effective persuasion techniques and stronger arguments in content.
  • Addressing potential client objections in content reassureslients about the value of products or services.
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Support the Show.

Search the Simple and Smart SEO Show podcast for something you heard! It's free!

Apply to be my podcast guest! 🎙️ Don't forget to Put your pitch topic in the subject line!

AFFILIATE LINKS:
Start your Shopify Store!
Quit guessing with your content! GET SURFER SEO!!!
10,000 Jasper words FREE!
Get Carry (formerly Ocho): the best retirement resources for entrepreneurs!

Note:
If you make a purchase using some of my links, I make a little money.
But I only ever share products, people, & offers I trust & use myself!

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Send me a text!

Today we talk to conversion copywriter Haley Burns and explore how to implement creativity to improve website traffic and engagement.

Connect with Haley:
Website
LinkedIn
Facebook

Like this episode? Sign up for the messaging masterclass w/ Marisa: Sept 26 @1pm, Sept 28 @ 8pm, or Sept 30 @10am.

Key Takeaways from this episode:

1. It's important to embed keywords into creative, engaging language and content.

  • Surfer SEO and Jasper can serve as beneficial tools to generate new ideas.
  • Continually optimize website content from both an SEO and copywriting perspective.

2. Haley emphasized unique and refined writing for an authentic brand voice.

  • Draw inspiration from reading fiction. (B also mentioned a nonfiction book to improve storytelling Stories that Stick.)
  • Engage with diverse people and note their unique phrases.
  • Take breaks from social media.

3. Is there a specified formula or objective in copywriting for high-quality content?

  • Haley: Sharing something new that resonates with the target audience suffices.
  • B defined high-quality content as helpful.
  • Crystal believes sharing a fresh and genuine perspective = high quality.
  • For e-commerce, compelling content can contain word graphics and images.
  • Haley: intention and honesty as crucial elements to high-quality content.

4. Conversion copywriting addresses objections to sales success.

  • Mastering conversion copywriting can lead to more effective persuasion techniques and stronger arguments in content.
  • Addressing potential client objections in content reassureslients about the value of products or services.
School of Podcasting -Launch, Grow, Monetize Your Podcast
You’re don't know where to learn to podcast. Now You do. Click the link.

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

How to Start a Podcast Guide: The Complete Guide
Learn how to plan, record, and launch your podcast with this illustrated guide.

Support the Show.

Search the Simple and Smart SEO Show podcast for something you heard! It's free!

Apply to be my podcast guest! 🎙️ Don't forget to Put your pitch topic in the subject line!

AFFILIATE LINKS:
Start your Shopify Store!
Quit guessing with your content! GET SURFER SEO!!!
10,000 Jasper words FREE!
Get Carry (formerly Ocho): the best retirement resources for entrepreneurs!

Note:
If you make a purchase using some of my links, I make a little money.
But I only ever share products, people, & offers I trust & use myself!

Brittany Herzberg: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO show. We are here today with Haley Burns.

Brittany Herzberg: Say, hi, Crystal. Say, 

Crystal Waddell: hi, Haley. Hi, B. 

Brittany Herzberg: That was so great. 

Brittany Herzberg: So today we're going to be talking about really like how to come up with your ideas like how to ideate, how to be creative and how to use that to drive traffic and engagement to and on your website. Are we ready?

Haley Burns: Definitely. 

Crystal Waddell: I love it. Any time we can like riff on creativity. I am down for that conversation. So thanks for being here, hayley. 

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. 

Haley Burns: Of course. 

Brittany Herzberg: Love this topic. Okay. And before I did not prep you for this one. 

Brittany Herzberg: Because I love just the like on the spot thoughts that come to you.

Brittany Herzberg: But if you've listened to the show, you may know, I love asking people how they define SEO. 

Brittany Herzberg: Or what you think of when SEO is mentioned. And there's no wrong answer. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. 

Haley Burns: I think of just the keywords that Differentiate you. And get you those rankings.[00:01:00] 

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. 

Brittany Herzberg: And that's where it's a totally good answer.

Brittany Herzberg: And that's where I've noticed, even just in the last couple of weeks, working with my clients, they have the creative, lovely, beautiful language about what they do and who they help and how they help. 

Brittany Herzberg: But then we add in the keywords and that's a little bit. Sometimes it can be thought of as like the stiff side of things or the not fun side of things.

Brittany Herzberg: So I'm excited to just to get to tie these two together. 

Haley Burns: Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah. 

Crystal Waddell: That's what I've been dealing with lately. Helping somebody build a brand new website. It's like a branch of their original business. 

Crystal Waddell: It's like keywords actually for me are a new jumping off point of creativity.

Crystal Waddell: And it mainly because people hear me talk about surfer all the time. 

Crystal Waddell: But I can't say enough how much Surfer SEO and Jasper has helped me. Come up with ideas that I never would have thought of on my own. 

Crystal Waddell: Because I'm just like trying so hard and working so hard. 

Crystal Waddell: My poor little brain is just overpowered, but then it's 

Crystal Waddell: Oh, here's like a little nugget that you [00:02:00] might've missed in a little opportunity of a keyword or an idea.

Crystal Waddell: And yeah, I love now that like keywords. 

Crystal Waddell: Even though they seem so boring, they can actually give you so many more ideas. 

Crystal Waddell: To, really stand out in your niche or 

Crystal Waddell: whatever. 

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. So Haley. 

Brittany Herzberg: Your thoughts on why do you think creativity even matters when it comes to being found online?

Haley Burns: Yeah. I A lot of people came online with their businesses, COVID time. 

Haley Burns: And I think it's more saturated and competitive than ever. 

Haley Burns: And the way that you write for your business, whether you're a copywriter or not. 

Haley Burns: Needs to be, more unique and more refined than ever in a world where, there's just a million of the same offerings and, just being really niche and being somebody that doesn't sound like chat GPT.

Haley Burns: And so that's where creativity comes into play. When creating like a really [00:03:00] authentic brand voice. Where people are being more discerning with how they buy and who they work with. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I think too, like when you are creative, when you let. I think of it too as like your essence, like who you are and why you're different and just really let you shine.

Brittany Herzberg: You draw in the right people that are like good fits for you. 

Brittany Herzberg: And when you let people see that side of you. 

Brittany Herzberg: A lot of us are like, we, it's almost like we get it like, This is harsh, but beat out of us growing up to not be ourselves and to just like fall in line and be like everybody else.

Brittany Herzberg: But the magic is when you bring you in. 

Brittany Herzberg: And if we can tap into that creativity and just be ourselves, I think it really draws in the right people. 

Crystal Waddell: And I wanted to piggyback on what you said about so many people starting businesses and coming online in 2020. 

Crystal Waddell: I know that it's saturated. I know there's so much out there.

Crystal Waddell: But at the same time, I'm jealous in a way of the people who just started their businesses [00:04:00] in 2020. 

Crystal Waddell: Because the information, it just seems like to be proliferating. Proliferating.

Crystal Waddell: Like B and I started this podcast because we were years into our businesses before we discovered SEO. 

Crystal Waddell: And people who are tuning in now, you've just started your business.

Crystal Waddell: Let me just assure you, even if it's saturated, you are getting like a five or six year head start on most people. You go girl, you go boy, whoever's listening, yeah. You're right where you need to be. 

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. And even just this week, I was having, again, with the conversations with my clients, I did a couple of audits and the numbers are really low.

Brittany Herzberg: They don't have a high domain authority. 

Brittany Herzberg: They don't have a lot of keywords that they're ranking for. And I'm like, this is great. 

Brittany Herzberg: And they're like, are you sure? I'm like, yeah, this is wonderful because you can only go up from here and you're going to get this strategy. 

Brittany Herzberg: You're going to have a really good, solid understanding of what needs to happen, and then the trajectory is just going to like skyrocket.

Crystal Waddell: Okay. I just have to share a very quick win, you guys. 

Crystal Waddell: Domain authority. I just crossed 25. 

Brittany Herzberg: I'm really happy for you. [00:05:00] And when you checked yours, I just hit 20. 

Crystal Waddell: You go girl. 

Brittany Herzberg: For anyone who's listening or who's here, who like doesn't know what domain authority is. It's just you're like you're ranking your report card of like how your website is doing. 

Brittany Herzberg: How credible engines.

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. Think that you are. So it's a score out of a hundred. It takes a little bit to get to 10, 10 is like the easiest. 

Brittany Herzberg: And then 10 to 20 is a little harder. 20 to 30 is a little harder, 30 to 40. And would you say 30 to 40 is where most entrepreneurs land,

Brittany Herzberg: crystal?

Crystal Waddell: Honestly, most small businesses, if you can get to 15, that's considered great. 

Crystal Waddell: Because think about a Walmart or Amazon or any of those big name type websites who have tons of backlinks and years.

Crystal Waddell: If not decades of a head start against the rest of us.

Crystal Waddell: Think about Forbes. Forbes was once known as a financial magazine. 

Crystal Waddell: And now they're like diving into everything. 

Crystal Waddell: Like, anything that could have an affiliate link, Forbes is right there. Okay. [00:06:00] In case you didn't know, that's how major media makes their money now.

Crystal Waddell: It's not from how many people watch the news network. It's from how many affiliate links they can stack on their website.

Crystal Waddell: Because we're not Forbes, and we're not Walmart and we're not Amazon, to build something from scratch is very difficult. 

Crystal Waddell: So a 15 is pretty common for small businesses. 

Crystal Waddell: And then anything beyond that is just gravy.

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, I love it. 

Brittany Herzberg: Okay. 

Brittany Herzberg: To tie this back into creativity and all this stuff with website copy. 

Brittany Herzberg: Do you feel like, and I know the answer to this, but do you feel like you can just post your copy and it's done? 

Brittany Herzberg: And you never have to touch it again. We don't have to be creative more than once.

Haley Burns: No. 

Haley Burns: Especially in the context of SEO. 

Haley Burns: You have to continuously optimize it, but, as you're.

Haley Burns: As your offerings evolve and as you learn more about the people that you're talking to. 

Haley Burns: I think it's important to, constantly weave in the words that they're using. 

Haley Burns: And, [00:07:00] reiterate on what you find their problems are. 

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. 

Crystal Waddell: So that's a great lead in because it's like, how often then do you optimize? 

Crystal Waddell: Like how often do you go back and assess the copy and, the work that it's doing on your behalf and then optimize it to be even better?

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. And let's look at that through a copywriter lens because we've got our SEO hats on. 

Brittany Herzberg: But from a copywriter perspective, what frequency do you think? 

Haley Burns: Oh, it's not something that I'm obsessing about. 

Haley Burns: It's just, if I have a light bulb moment, I'm a big person. 

Haley Burns: I'm just like writing things down and taking notes and then coming back at a later date.

Haley Burns: I don't know, every 6 months? 

Haley Burns: Maybe not a set time. 

Brittany Herzberg: Just like when the inspiration strikes. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. When there's, when there is that light bulb moment. Yeah. 

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. I definitely do that with, you were talking about what your people say, or if someone has said anything interesting, I'm a huge believer.

Brittany Herzberg: Of course I haven't been implementing it. Like I should be, but if anyone says something great about you, if it's a client. 

Brittany Herzberg: Or, the thing [00:08:00] I've been really trying to stay on top of is whenever I guest teach or, I was invited to speak at a virtual conference. 

Brittany Herzberg: I've been uncomfortably. 

Brittany Herzberg: Following up with the host, whether it's a podcast host or the conference host. 

Brittany Herzberg: And just letting them know, honestly, Hey, I'm trying to beef up the testimonials on my speaker page.

Brittany Herzberg: If you thought that I was a good guest, would share your thoughts? 

Brittany Herzberg: And I even have started giving them like a fill in the blank or finish the sentence prompt. 

Brittany Herzberg: And every single person has written back. 

Brittany Herzberg: And that's been really heartwarming. 

Brittany Herzberg: But also it's okay, Brittany, put this on your website.

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. Yeah. Something that needs to go out and, to the rest of the world can see it because again, it just boosts your credibility and authority. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. Sometimes we're just having so much fun. We forget that we're working. 

Crystal Waddell: I wanted to add that because, I do look at things through an SEO lens.

Crystal Waddell: Like I am obsessive about words on the page. 

Crystal Waddell: And so I love the idea of coming in with, a creative writer. 

Crystal Waddell: And then I also love the idea [00:09:00] of following up in Google analytics, like Google search console specifically. 

Crystal Waddell: And then seeing okay, what are we getting found for? 

Crystal Waddell: And what are the opportunities here?

Crystal Waddell: And I want to share an opportunity right now. 

Crystal Waddell: I was, going through One of my clients site and we are looking at, just what she was already ranking for and what might be some possibilities. 

Crystal Waddell: One of the possibilities happened to be one of her main keywords in Spanish.

Brittany Herzberg: Oh, wow. 

Crystal Waddell: So a big just aha to me was like, Oh my goodness. 

Crystal Waddell: For those who are able to harness the power of a multiple language website. 

Crystal Waddell: If your customers happen to speak another language and they're in your country or your target, location. 

Crystal Waddell: That could be a huge opportunity for you because it may be the one thing that.

Crystal Waddell: Gives you a different treat. I can't speak either. 

Crystal Waddell: Gives you a differentiating factor, amidst all the noise out there. 

Crystal Waddell: So I [00:10:00] loved it because it was like, Hey, you don't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel and create all these new products and ideas. 

Crystal Waddell: You just have to make it accessible to a new audience.

Crystal Waddell: So just wanted to throw that one out there. 

Brittany Herzberg: When it comes to writing for your business. 

Brittany Herzberg: Do you feel like there are any myths that you would like to bust for business owners? 

Haley Burns: Yeah, sure. I think, one thing that I learned, especially from the copywriter, Ben Settle, is that, it's good to, what does he call it? 

Haley Burns: Language butchering where you just you slang and talk.

Haley Burns: How you talk. It's not a revolutionary idea. 

Haley Burns: But I think a lot of us, if we're not creative people are inherently creative people or we're not copywriters. 

Haley Burns: We have it so stuck in our brains, what we learned in English class in high school. 

Haley Burns: But it's really okay to just, use slang and get a little bit freaky because that's like what's engaging.

Haley Burns: And, yeah, I think that's a huge way to just stand out. And cut through the [00:11:00] noise today. 

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, that's actually, so my boyfriend, for anyone listening, you probably have heard me say this. He's a nonfiction editor and a publishing coach. 

Brittany Herzberg: And that was one of the things that we had a battle of wills for a little while.

Brittany Herzberg: Because he's he follows the rules to a T and he must. 

Brittany Herzberg: For the type of work that he does. 

Brittany Herzberg: But then there's my work and I'm writing how I speak and I'm like pulling things in. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I'm using quotes even when they don't have the proper punctuation. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I'm throwing emojis in there. 

Brittany Herzberg: We weren't taught that in high school. 

Brittany Herzberg: So it was really funny to watch us figure out how to have that meld. 

Brittany Herzberg: So now it's more about like when he copy edits any of the case studies that I do. 

Brittany Herzberg: He's looking for okay Because I even had to say, I'm like, does this flow?

Brittany Herzberg: Do I lose the reader at any point? Do I lose the main character at any point? 

Brittany Herzberg: Is this happening? 

Brittany Herzberg: Du-du-du-duh. 

Brittany Herzberg: So we have this like checklist now that we run through, but it's a lot less about am I following the rules of grammar? Because I don't. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. 

Crystal Waddell: And I think it's really interesting what that, Ben, you [00:12:00] said his name was Ben?

Haley Burns: Ben Settle. Yeah. Ben Settle. 

Crystal Waddell: Yeah. I think that's a really excellent takeaway. 

Crystal Waddell: And it's again, where SEO and copywriting intersect. 

Crystal Waddell: Because people search how they talk. 

Crystal Waddell: They don't search formally. 

Crystal Waddell: They don't search, jargon. They search the words that people use. 

Crystal Waddell: And so that's such a great takeaway where even though.

Crystal Waddell: It's called something different in copywriting and it's called something different in SEO. 

Crystal Waddell: They're actually the same concept. That's how you will get found online.

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. And that goes even back to with the testimonials, because if we are.... 

Brittany Herzberg: this is why I love using testimonials and it's why they're so brilliant, because if you're listening to what your clients are saying, your clients or students, your customers, whoever they are, you're going to get the language that you need, or that backs up or proves your SEO keywords.

Brittany Herzberg: So it's It's very cyclical, like they just feed each other and help each other. 

Crystal Waddell: Sometimes people, when they hear how they talk and they see it in the written word. 

Crystal Waddell: Say you're converting a [00:13:00] video to a blog, which is something I do for my clients. 

Crystal Waddell: We say a lot of different things. 

Crystal Waddell: Gonna or whatever, and I leave a lot of that in there because it's NLP. 

Crystal Waddell: Which is called natural language processing. 

Crystal Waddell: And that is a differentiator in, let's say, AI generated content. 

Crystal Waddell: Which is going to be a little bit more grammatically correct.

Crystal Waddell: So what we often look at as errors and things that might make us sound stupid or not as educated. 

Crystal Waddell: Or not as qualified to be the expert. 

Crystal Waddell: Are actually the things that still help us get found in search as well. 

Crystal Waddell: And these articles, some people say, Oh, it's going to take three to six months to rank or whatever.

Crystal Waddell: We're ranking in two weeks. 

Crystal Waddell: That's because we understand what keywords we're going after and we're saying it in a natural way. 

Crystal Waddell: So I just, yeah, I just wanted to riff on that one for a minute. 

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, definitely. The more the merrier. Okay. So when we get back to you, like creativity and inspiration, do you have any ideas of or what do [00:14:00] you do in your process to like source inspiration?

Haley Burns: Yeah, where do I start? 

Haley Burns: One thing that, was huge for me and not everyone can do this, but in 2018, I went cold turkey from basically social media. 

Haley Burns: But a big one was Instagram. In terms of using it, in my personal life. 

Haley Burns: Because I wanted to replace, My hobbies with things that I felt would add value to my life in a better way.

Haley Burns: And especially to my career. 

Haley Burns: And I started off instead of scrolling, like reading a lot of, nonfiction. 

Haley Burns: Because, optimizing productivity, bro, businessmen, speed reading nonfiction. 

Haley Burns: But, and they always touted that, reading, reading fiction was useless for your business. 

Haley Burns: And I found that the opposite is true.

Haley Burns: And now in my free time when I want to watch like a movie. Turn on Netflix or scroll. 

Haley Burns: Instead, I like to read fiction because it I feel entertained. 

Haley Burns: But also a lot of what I'm reading marinates in my subconscious. 

Haley Burns: And different authors. 

Haley Burns: You [00:15:00] can draw different value, toward your business writing, for example. 

Haley Burns: Joyce Carol Oates and Charles Bukowski. 

Haley Burns: They're really short sentences, really conversational.

Haley Burns: It's like a great lesson in brevity. 

Haley Burns: And, it's just easily understood. 

Haley Burns: And I think, while you're reading like those kind of authors and analyzing, their pacing. 

Haley Burns: Can be super valuable for writing engaging content. 

Haley Burns: And then, like more descriptive, fiction writers like, Cormac McCarthy, who died last week rip.

Brittany Herzberg: Oh, wow. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. He's amazing. 

Haley Burns: I feel like those writers who are more descriptive and verbose. 

Haley Burns: Are amazing way to plug into human emotion. 

Haley Burns: And how to tell compelling stories. 

Haley Burns: And, yeah, just plug into humanity. 

Haley Burns: And so that's one huge thing that I think helps my creativity and writing is just, yeah, spending free time writing, reading fiction.

Crystal Waddell: Yeah. Did you have anything B? 

Brittany Herzberg: No. Okay. 

Crystal Waddell: All right. I just wanted to say a couple of things.[00:16:00] Reading fiction. I love that because there was a time where I felt overwhelmed. I love to read. And so I started reading fiction as well, but I'm like, reading beach reads, like I'm not trying to get super deep.

Crystal Waddell: I'm just looking like something fun to read. And what, one thing that was really great about it is that I was able to understand my client's journey even better. 

Crystal Waddell: So if you can find a fiction book that kind of goes, aligned is aligned with your client's journey, helps you understand their life and where you might be able to fit in their life. 

Crystal Waddell: Because my client is definitely living a much different lifestyle.

Crystal Waddell: Our lives intersect in the sports world. 

Crystal Waddell: Because I was a coach and their kids play sports and their travel parents and that type of thing. But in terms of lifestyle, it's very different. So I love that with, finding client journeys. 

Crystal Waddell: And then another thing reminding me of B's dad is that the finding the analogies. 

Crystal Waddell: Of SEO [00:17:00] particularly, or seeing how things work in different environments and then thinking, Oh my gosh, that's how it works in writing. 

Crystal Waddell: Or that's how it works in SEO, or that's how it works in whatever it is you're doing that opens your mind to be able to understand things.

Crystal Waddell: That much more. And then the last thing, when you were talking about taking a social media break, that's what I'm doing right now. 

Crystal Waddell: And I'm taking a vacation. I'm actually in Hutchinson, Kansas, where I was born and raised. 

Crystal Waddell: Spending some time with my parents and getting out of the echo chamber. I'm like, because I finally realized, there is truth to the fact that you train the algorithm, right?

Crystal Waddell: I love being over on LinkedIn, but I am SEO echo chamber. 

Crystal Waddell: And I am like, Get me out of here, like trying to follow UX people and get out of like SEO completely.

Crystal Waddell: Because it is just a bunch of people like regurgitating what the other person said and then presenting it as.

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. I just [00:18:00] thought about this. 

Crystal Waddell: Yeah. And I'm like, what in the world is this? 

Crystal Waddell: So it's like fiction, like you said, is a great place to find new ideas and find new ideas for yourself. So just loved all of those things. 

Crystal Waddell: Yeah, 

Brittany Herzberg: I wanted to say that I'm a huge like reading nerd. It's always been my happy place.

Brittany Herzberg: It's always been my escape. It's always been like, I just, I love it. 

Brittany Herzberg: One thing I've tried to do in the last year or so is I used to make myself read one book and one book only. 

Brittany Herzberg: And recently I've been like nonfiction and fiction. 

Brittany Herzberg: And it's very funny because I've got like fantasy novels and then I'm reading about storytelling with Kendra Hall.

Brittany Herzberg: No one would put those two things together and yet they work because just what you're saying, Crystal. 

Brittany Herzberg: Like it ties those things together and it lets your brain just get lost in the story, which is one thing that I love bringing into the case studies is like, we need the storytelling because it really draws the person in. 

Brittany Herzberg: They see the connections and then they convert more easily. 

Brittany Herzberg: But it's just a nice escape sometimes too.

Brittany Herzberg: For sure. [00:19:00] Okay, anything other than fiction books? Yeah, 

Haley Burns: Definitely just exposing yourself to people that you wouldn't normally. 

Haley Burns: Or I guess there's a better way to phrase this. 

Haley Burns: One thing that I do is I might hear somebody use like a simile or something. 

Haley Burns: Here's an example. I was at like gas station and I heard a woman, like a baby boomer say, He was drooling like a basset hound. 

Haley Burns: And it's like I would have never have thought that but I immediately write it down because I have this like huge notepad of similes.

Haley Burns: I guess just like staying like plugged in to like sticky phrases like that in places like anywhere. 

Haley Burns: Whether it's like a waitress or, your parent or your boyfriend or something.

Haley Burns: I love like just writing everything down and you never know when it's going to be like a huge, like a big idea leader for your writing. 

Haley Burns: Or, even if you're like sending out, like an email, if you have a mailing list, like turning that into a story or something, [00:20:00] yeah.

Crystal Waddell: Oh, I love that. 

Crystal Waddell: So my question is for this idea of high quality content, in the buzzwords, the jargon of engaging content and blah, blah, blah, scroll stopping content. 

Crystal Waddell: I'm like, all these things grind my gears so bad. I don't know why. But what does that really mean? 

Crystal Waddell: What is that?

Crystal Waddell: Like what elements make up something that is considered high quality? 

Crystal Waddell: Because to me, that sounds a little subjective. 

Crystal Waddell: So I'm like, is there some sort of formula or outcome that we're searching for to actually define it as high quality content? 

Crystal Waddell: Is there anything like that in copywriting? 

Haley Burns: Sure. I, you're the SEO people. 

Haley Burns: But, from my perspective, I wouldn't break my back trying to create some like objective version of high quality content. 

Haley Burns: As long as I'm being authentic and sharing something novel. 

Haley Burns: And, if it's something that I know [00:21:00] resonates with my people. 

Haley Burns: Then that's high quality enough for me and I would assume them. 

Haley Burns: So, I don't know if there's some like metric. 

Brittany Herzberg: I don't know about metrics. 

Brittany Herzberg: But I do think that high quality in my mind when I'm creating things, it's like.

Brittany Herzberg: I probably run it through my own checklist. 

Brittany Herzberg: Am I connecting with the person? 

Brittany Herzberg: Am I actually being helpful? 

Brittany Herzberg: Like we know last year that Google had the helpful content update. 

Brittany Herzberg: And there's an episode about that if you want to listen to it. 

Brittany Herzberg: Subtle plug. 

Brittany Herzberg: But just like remembering who's on the other side of the screen. 

Brittany Herzberg: And making sure that whatever you're putting out there, is it helping them in some way, shape, or form?

Brittany Herzberg: Is it inviting them into your program? 

Brittany Herzberg: Is it, sharing an offer with them? 

Brittany Herzberg: Is it You're just helping them. 

Brittany Herzberg: You're giving them advice. 

Brittany Herzberg: You're walking them through something. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I think if you're doing that's really the ultimate thing because I always go back to intention and connection. 

Brittany Herzberg: So I think that Just remembering, like having that constant intention of what am I putting this out there for?

Brittany Herzberg: What am I hoping that this thing will achieve? 

Brittany Herzberg: And of course, as [00:22:00] we know, because I've said it before, that seamlessly ties into your SEO strategy. 

Brittany Herzberg: Because again, like I, when I create content, when I create a case study, for example, I want to think of what's the end goal here? 

Brittany Herzberg: Where do I want to send them?

Brittany Herzberg: What's the really big point that I want to get across? 

Brittany Herzberg: I write the thing and then it's Okay. 

Brittany Herzberg: Did that accomplish it? Yes or no? 

Brittany Herzberg: Usually it does. If it doesn't, then I've got a lot more work ahead of me, but. 

Haley Burns: Yeah, totally, brittany. 

Haley Burns: Like being honest with yourself and that intention is really everything.

Haley Burns: I think when it comes to high quality content.

Brittany Herzberg: What do you think of when you hear those phrases, Crystal? 

Brittany Herzberg: You said they grind your gears. 

Brittany Herzberg: But I'm wondering, I just had this thought, like I'm wondering if they grind your gears because it is so vague. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I know that you like specifics. 

Brittany Herzberg: And specific steps and things like that. 

Brittany Herzberg: So I'm wondering if that's part of it. 

Brittany Herzberg: But like when you hear those phrases, what comes to mind?

Crystal Waddell: I think it's just this echo chamber of people giving advice. 

Crystal Waddell: Like you said, without giving specifics. 

Crystal Waddell: And because it's subjective. 

Crystal Waddell: I think one thing you just said, Hailey, was [00:23:00] novelty. 

Crystal Waddell: And being new and being fresh. 

Crystal Waddell: It took me a long time to realize this. 

Crystal Waddell: It took me a long time to realize that I didn't have to sound like everyone else.

Crystal Waddell: I didn't have to give myself support from other people in the industry. 

Crystal Waddell: To be able to see myself as an expert. 

Crystal Waddell: Or to know that what I was talking about. 

Crystal Waddell: Even though it's new and it may be different in its approach it still works. 

Crystal Waddell: And it doesn't necessarily need a bunch of proof from other people chiming in about the exact same thing.

Crystal Waddell: It's actually like what be said it's to my advantage. 

Crystal Waddell: It's to our advantage to share something new to share a different perspective. 

Crystal Waddell: And so I think the answer that I was searching for I didn't realize was the fact that yes novelty, new, a genuine perspective. 

Crystal Waddell: Those are the things to me that kind of make up high quality content. 

Crystal Waddell: And then also the way that it's presented. 

Crystal Waddell: So for instance, my specialty is e commerce.

Crystal Waddell: And one thing about e commerce is when you're writing product [00:24:00] descriptions and you are, you have words on a page. 

Crystal Waddell: That's primarily for search engines. 

Crystal Waddell: You're going to have your group of people who may love to read all of that copy. 

Crystal Waddell: But what people are drawn to primarily in e commerce are the images. 

Crystal Waddell: And so what I've come to realize is that compelling content on an e commerce site also includes word graphics. 

Crystal Waddell: The images. 

Crystal Waddell: Because as people are swiping through the images. 

Crystal Waddell: They'll take a moment to read some brief copy in an image. 

Crystal Waddell: Because that's where they already are looking for information. 

Crystal Waddell: So those are the types of, specific things that I look for from people when they're talking about high quality content. 

Crystal Waddell: And so I love that you pointed out that, hey, it's new. 

Crystal Waddell: If it's new, that it lends itself to being high quality because it's not regurgitated.

Brittany Herzberg: And it goes back to the thing that we were talking about earlier.

Brittany Herzberg: Just like being ourselves and being authentic and being genuine to who we are and being willing to [00:25:00] show up as ourselves. 

Brittany Herzberg: If I think through some of the names that are coming to mind right now, where it's just like these people are well known in our industry of copywriting or marketing or even SEO.

Brittany Herzberg: And you take a minute and you're like, why are they so well known? 

Brittany Herzberg: Why are they so well respected? 

Brittany Herzberg: They do have the fresh ideas. They aren't afraid to be themselves. 

Brittany Herzberg: They aren't afraid to make bold statements and have an opinion. 

Brittany Herzberg: And so many of us are like, we're going to stay toward the middle and we're not going to say anything.

Brittany Herzberg: And I am like this other person and this is good.

Brittany Herzberg: Cause I'm like, just don't be afraid to be yourself. If there's anything that I'm taking away from this episode, it's that. 

Crystal Waddell: Yeah. 

Crystal Waddell: And I think a lot of us want to stay where it's safe because when you're creating and you're trying to actually make money so that you can eat. 

Crystal Waddell: It's a lot safer to stay in the middle, but the future is not in the middle.

Crystal Waddell: The future is on the fringe. 

Crystal Waddell: And so, we've got to find ways to get to the fringe. 

Crystal Waddell: And just push what already exists into [00:26:00] something that maybe doesn't exist. 

Crystal Waddell: Or a new perspective of what exists. 

Crystal Waddell: And so that's what I feel like SEO has helped me do that with more confidence. 

Crystal Waddell: Absolutely. Because as these keywords relate to each other, I realized that my crazy ideas aren't so crazy after all.

Crystal Waddell: They're actually, 

Crystal Waddell: They're actually connected to the safe thing. 

Crystal Waddell: They're just on the fringe. 

Brittany Herzberg: So yeah. They're like, aiming a different direction. 

Brittany Herzberg: Haley, you mentioned a couple of things that make me wonder, and I probably should know this. 

Brittany Herzberg: But you were talking about like the pacing and like the length of sentences.

Brittany Herzberg: Do you work with brand voice? 

Haley Burns: I don't, no. I focus on, just conversion copywriting. 

Haley Burns: So I'm doing launch copywriting sales pages, Facebook ads, and email. 

Haley Burns: So I wouldn't have a specific service where I'm helping with brand voice. 

Haley Burns: But, what I said before, definitely comes useful in being a chameleon to my clients brand voice.

Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, I totally relate to that. 

Crystal Waddell: So, what are the important elements of conversion [00:27:00] copywriting? 

Crystal Waddell: Could you give us a definition of conversion copywriting? 

Crystal Waddell: Just in case somebody is listening and they're like, okay, we were talking about copywriting. 

Crystal Waddell: Now we're talking about conversion copywriting.

Crystal Waddell: That's like a thing that's a different thing. What is that? Can you explain that? And then, what makes up conversion copywriting? 

Haley Burns: Sure. 

Haley Burns: So copywriting that is conversion copywriting is written with the goal to inspire a specific action from the reader. 

Haley Burns: Whether that's a conversion, in the form of a sign up or register, just becoming a follower.

Haley Burns: And, it's also called direct response copy. 

Haley Burns: Because you're looking for a direct response that can be measured. 

Haley Burns: And the types of copy that might be would be, like a sales page where you were, directly asking for somebody to, join your program. 

Haley Burns: That, contrast with a blog post. 

Haley Burns: Which is, blog post copywriting is mostly [00:28:00] informational or educational.

Haley Burns: So that's where the divide is and what I do and, content writing. 

Brittany Herzberg: And you even said ad copy. So that's good. 

Brittany Herzberg: I know who to send people to because I don't touch ads at the 10 foot poles. 

Haley Burns: Yeah, that's my jam. 

Crystal Waddell: I think that to connect this to other things that we've talked about in other episodes, because we talk about, top of funnel, middle funnel. 

Crystal Waddell: Bottom of funnel. 

Crystal Waddell: Conversion copywriting belongs at the bottom of the funnel. 

Crystal Waddell: And then, that's where we would be looking primarily for transactional keywords in SEO.

Crystal Waddell: Because we're searching to make a transaction. 

Crystal Waddell: But I guess to be, just contrary for no reason, except, maybe I'm tired from the driving. 

Crystal Waddell: Wouldn't we want all of our copy to be some form of conversion copywriting? 

Crystal Waddell: Because like at the end of the day, we're here to make money. 

Crystal Waddell: And that's what I hear from a lot of people is like, how is this going to make me money?

Crystal Waddell: So, shouldn't all of our copywriting be conversion copywriting? [00:29:00] 

Haley Burns: Yeah. 

Haley Burns: And I think, especially if you're an entrepreneur or business owner, it's always good to have a good grasp on conversion copywriting. 

Haley Burns: Which is, persuasion techniques and, just how to, structure a good argument. 

Haley Burns: And address, maybe sales objections, wherever you're writing to your audience.

Haley Burns: Whether or not you're directly like promoting an offer. 

Haley Burns: I think it's good to just use these sort of like conversion copywriting best practices. 

Haley Burns: Whether or not, you're writing a sales page, even if it is a blog post. 

Haley Burns: But not everybody does that. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I would even say to just offer the opposite opinion.

Brittany Herzberg: If I, when you mentioned that, I immediately thought of emails. 

Brittany Herzberg: I don't necessarily want to sell in every single email. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I have been doing that for a little bit and that's why I'm saying this. 

Brittany Herzberg: And that's why it was so top of mind for me because I really missed just writing things to connect with the people.

Brittany Herzberg: People with my email audience with really people I consider friends. [00:30:00] 

Brittany Herzberg: They're reading my stuff like they care, they're still on my list. 

Brittany Herzberg: And if they decide to unsubscribe that's totally fine. 

Brittany Herzberg: There's just, they're good with the information that I have shared with them and they are ready to move on to some different avenue and that's totally fine.

Brittany Herzberg: But I would say it's important to master conversion copywriting. And to just like you said understand the principles and the techniques of it. 

Brittany Herzberg: And remember the person on the other side of the computer. 

Brittany Herzberg: And you sometimes just want to check in with them and say hi and share something and in an effort to connect or in an effort to inform or educate.

Brittany Herzberg: So I think there's a purpose for it and a place for it for sure. 

Brittany Herzberg: Even in case studies, like I even. 

Brittany Herzberg: As you were explaining conversion copywriting, I'm like, case studies, they land very heavily in conversion copywriting. 

Brittany Herzberg: And yet it's still there to entertain, inform, connect, educate. Yeah. So there's, it's a blend. 

Brittany Herzberg: And all of the time you're trying to figure out like, what recipe do I need for this thing?

Brittany Herzberg: This email, this blog post, this sales page. 

Haley Burns: Yeah, it's definitely a spectrum. 

Crystal Waddell: As I [00:31:00] hear you guys talking about this, the thing that really stood out to me for our e commerce listeners is addressing those sales objections. 

Crystal Waddell: Because I think a lot of business owners, especially, smaller business owners, if you don't have a lot of experience, you're just getting started out.

Crystal Waddell: A lot of times we want to shy away from the objections because there's nothing wrong with our product, right? 

Crystal Waddell: Like it's perfect. 

Crystal Waddell: Your life will be perfect when you buy this product and there will never be any problems ever. 

Crystal Waddell: So if you can instead take the approach of saying, Hey, we're aware that X, Y, Z might happen, but this is how we deal with it.

Crystal Waddell: Or, these are just some of the challenges you might experience on the way. 

Crystal Waddell: This is again where conversion copywriting intersects with user experience and, just that UX copy. 

Crystal Waddell: And UX design of that client journey. 

Crystal Waddell: And so I think it's really important that people understand as you're listening to this guys.

Crystal Waddell: The [00:32:00] biggest takeaway that I could share with especially e commerce and pretty much anybody else. 

Crystal Waddell: Is just, how can you get in front of your clients, "no", and reassure them. 

Crystal Waddell: That this is a good purchase. 

Crystal Waddell: Or this is a good investment. 

Crystal Waddell: No matter what happens. And these are the things that we've seen that could be considered negatives that have happened. 

Crystal Waddell: But this is what you can expect, and this is what you can expect from us.

Crystal Waddell: This is what you might run into. 

Crystal Waddell: And this is how we help you get past that. 

Crystal Waddell: Those are the things that I think of when I think of conversion copywriting. 

Brittany Herzberg: And yet again, I'm going to just subtly plug case studies. 

Brittany Herzberg: Because it's literally what they do.

Brittany Herzberg: They walk you through, the way that I write them, it walks you through someone's experience, someone's journey. 

Brittany Herzberg: And exactly what happened and who they are, what their life was like before, what was the experience. 

Brittany Herzberg: And then where are they at now after working with you or after going through your program or after buying your thing.

Brittany Herzberg: Where are they at now? 

Brittany Herzberg: And you actually get to take a moment just to walk through that journey and go, Oh, okay. 

Brittany Herzberg: And it really does [00:33:00] build trust and it reassures people. And it even sets expectations. 

Brittany Herzberg: Like you're talking about even just like understanding the process, if it is a service based business provider. 

Brittany Herzberg: Even the process of a product arriving or something like that too for e commerce. 

Crystal Waddell: Yeah.

Crystal Waddell: Those are all things that I need to improve personally, and so like we're working through that right now. 

Crystal Waddell: And I 100% agree with everything you just said that would make an amazing checklist. 

Brittany Herzberg: Gee, thanks.

Crystal Waddell: I know people are pretty busy. 

Crystal Waddell: And it's Oh, do the work. 

Crystal Waddell: Do all the stuff that you have to do. 

Crystal Waddell: And then fit in self care. And then live your life and all this stuff.

Crystal Waddell: And then, also make time to be creative. 

Crystal Waddell: I am a maker and that's my business. 

Crystal Waddell: But for those whose businesses don't revolve around creativity. 

Crystal Waddell: Are there any other ideas for us? 

Haley Burns: Yeah. So back to the kind of copywriting. 

Haley Burns: One of the first books I read, when I was learning copywriting was by, Joseph Sugarman.

Haley Burns: And in the beginning of the book, he talks about, like the best copywriters being people who are just generally Curious about [00:34:00] life. 

Haley Burns: And have a lot of interest, read a lot. 

Haley Burns: They travel a lot. 

Haley Burns: And I think just like cultivating a mindset constantly. 

Haley Burns: Where you're, trying to, no matter what you're doing, like trying to relate that, to an idea. 

Haley Burns: Or brainstorm something. 

Haley Burns: Like I said, just writing ideas down. 

Haley Burns: And, staying turned on and the fact that, you could maybe use that. 

Haley Burns: Whether you're like watching stand up comedy. 

Haley Burns: Or, traveling to a new city and listening to foreigners. 

Haley Burns: So I guess it's more of like a nebulous concept. 

Haley Burns: But, just keeping like a curious mindset. 

Haley Burns: And constantly trying to relate that to how you might flesh out your own writing.

Haley Burns: And back to, like comedy. 

Haley Burns: I think that is, another, great thing to to use. 

Haley Burns: If you're watching stand up comedy, you can draw inspiration from that. 

Haley Burns: Because the way that like comedians structure their jokes, the way that they use hooks. 

Haley Burns: And they use like the most absurd [00:35:00] part of the joke at the end of the sentence. 

Haley Burns: Or the most absurd word. 

Haley Burns: I think that's like a super valuable lesson for writing creatively and keeping people engaged.

Haley Burns: So yeah, that's just like one example. 

Haley Burns: And then, I think like you said, like self care is so important. 

Haley Burns: And just giving our ourselves time to just walk away from the computer and let like ideas, just marinate. 

Haley Burns: Like I said, and recharge. 

Haley Burns: Because that's when your subconscious is really like creating all of these good ideas.

Crystal Waddell: So recently I was listening to stand up. 

Crystal Waddell: And I was listening to Dave Chappelle for a little bit. 

Crystal Waddell: And then there was a, I think Conan O'Brien has a podcast and he had Adam Sandler on there. 

Crystal Waddell: And sometimes I use Adam Sandler in my Jasper tone of voice because I love Adam Sandler. 

Crystal Waddell: And so it was my best friend.

Crystal Waddell: But anyway, they were having a chat about what it was like back on SNL when they first started. 

Crystal Waddell: And they brought up Dana Carvey. 

Crystal Waddell: And Chris rock. So [00:36:00] especially Chris Rock. 

Crystal Waddell: What two words would you first use to describe him? 

Crystal Waddell: Not profanity, but it's like, what two words would you use to describe him?

Crystal Waddell: I'm just curious from both of you guys. 

Brittany Herzberg: Just funny. It's I just remember like him, his essence, his like energy, his vibe, like that's, what's coming through. 

Crystal Waddell: But what would you, how would you describe it? 

Haley Burns: Like he's really bold.

Brittany Herzberg: That's a good one. Yeah. 

Crystal Waddell: Okay. So bold. He was shy. 

Crystal Waddell: They said he was really shy. 

Crystal Waddell: Really quiet. 

Crystal Waddell: Not necessarily not confident, but definitely checking with people. 

Crystal Waddell: Like, Hey, what do you think of this or duh-duh-duh or whatever?

Crystal Waddell: And that's Chris rock. 

Crystal Waddell: And so what I took away from that very random. 

Crystal Waddell: But it was just like, Hey, even the really successful people that seem like they're all up in your face and they've got like confidence overflowing for the masses. 

Crystal Waddell: Might've started somewhere different. 

Crystal Waddell: Might've started a little less confident, a little [00:37:00] less like in your face. 

Crystal Waddell: A little less bold, but you too can get there.

Crystal Waddell: That's what I got from that conversation. And I thought that was just the neatest thing because I thought. 

Crystal Waddell: Oh my gosh, if somebody was going to call Chris rock reserved and yet you're going to call him bold. 

Crystal Waddell: What does that say about the potential in all of us? 

Brittany Herzberg: Totally. 

Brittany Herzberg: And even as you guys are giving the examples of comedy and of even like everyday life moments. 

Brittany Herzberg: I've been super introverted. I still am introverted, but I was very shy. 

Brittany Herzberg: I moved a lot. So I was always, I was perpetually the new kid, the new girl. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I, on top of that, I was like the smart new girl. 

Brittany Herzberg: Which is not like a very good look in case you're wondering, and you didn't move a lot.

Brittany Herzberg: It's not like the best look to roll into school with. 

Brittany Herzberg: I hid with humor. I made friends with the most random people. 

Brittany Herzberg: And I did that by sharing my work, literally like what we do on the podcast. 

Brittany Herzberg: Like I shared my work in school. Even to the point where I got in trouble once for not sharing the answers. But anyway, so I digress.

Brittany Herzberg: It was third grade and my best friend and I didn't [00:38:00] realize that we even were cheating. 

Brittany Herzberg: Story for another day. 

Brittany Herzberg: But one thing that I was really good at what in school was like, I remember this very specific semester I had six classes I had three online three in person. 

Brittany Herzberg: And my brain, no matter what classes I was taking, my brain would connect the dots.

Brittany Herzberg: My brain would find a connection from world religions to calc one that I couldn't seem to pass. 

Brittany Herzberg: To, world history or whatever. 

Brittany Herzberg: Like my brain just made all these connections and now it's really helpful as a copywriter and as a strategist. 

Brittany Herzberg: But I just thought that I was like the weirdest human ever.

Brittany Herzberg: I was like, why does my brain do this and what purpose does it serve? 

Brittany Herzberg: It helped me to connect the dots at the concepts I was learning. And so it made me be really successful in all of the classes. 

Brittany Herzberg: It also helped me figure out. What is my classmate not getting? 

Brittany Herzberg: Because I would just sit there and see the confusion on their face and it drove me bonkers. 

Brittany Herzberg: Which is why I would go over there and help them.

Brittany Herzberg: But to tie this into what you guys are talking about, like everyday life. 

Brittany Herzberg: Just being aware in those [00:39:00] moments and being open to hearing the things that are happening. 

Brittany Herzberg: I'm a little bit, sometimes too much of an empathetic person. 

Brittany Herzberg: Where I notice everything. 

Brittany Herzberg: But there's a purpose for it.

Brittany Herzberg: If you are wired like that. 

Brittany Herzberg: And if you're not wired like that, I challenge you a little bit. 

Brittany Herzberg: To try to be a little bit more open to noticing what's going on because it will make your work that much better. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. Putting yourself in other people's shoes is. Hugely important, especially for copywriting. 

Haley Burns: Oh, do you know your Myers Briggs?

Brittany Herzberg: INFJ. I knew it. Me too. Did you really? I love this. This is such a happy day. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. You sound like one. No shade. 

Brittany Herzberg: No, not at all. I think it's one of the rare ones. 

Haley Burns: It is the most rare. Yeah. Yeah. But we're also like the most mushy. 

Brittany Herzberg: Oh yeah. I hide behind a really good exterior sometimes. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. Crystal, do you know yours?

Crystal Waddell: Unfortunately I didn't take it this morning. 

Crystal Waddell: So if it didn't happen today, I don't remember it, but I did take it.

Crystal Waddell: So how can people, connect with you [00:40:00] if they're looking for a conversion copywriter or launch strategist? 

Haley Burns: Sure. 

Haley Burns: Not a big social media person, but my website is, sugarcopy.com. 

Haley Burns: Also on Facebook. Facebook.com/Haley.Copywriter.

Haley Burns: And LinkedIn.com/HaleyKateBurns. 

Brittany Herzberg: Love it. Go find her, people. Don't call me for ad copy. Call Haley. 

Crystal Waddell: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. It was nice to meet you. 

Haley Burns: Yeah. Thanks for me. Thanks, Crystal. Yeah, it was awesome. 

Brittany Herzberg: We'll catch you next time. Yeah. Thanks. Have a good week.

Brittany Herzberg: You too. Bye. 

(Cont.) Creative SEO and Conversion Copywriting w/ Haley Burns
(Cont.) Creative SEO and Conversion Copywriting w/ Haley Burns