Today we are talking Local SEO & sales w/ B's dad.
Our conversation ranged from the transition of marketing from older tactics (newspapers, radio, door knocking) to utilizing local SEO to target specific geographical areas.
1. Dave Herzberg, a window replacement business owner in Raleigh, struggled with understanding and implementing SEO at the beginning.
2. Dave emphasized the importance of providing clear information on websites without making it too complicated.
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This transcript is machine generated and has not been fully edited for errors.
[00:00:00] Brittany Herzberg: Welcome back. We are here. We've already talked with Crystal's Dad, and now we've got my dad on this week.
And it's gonna be a little bit of a different angle because Crystal's dad listens to the show.
My dad I've actually helped him with SEO with SEO copywriting.
So we're gonna have just a slightly different take on things.
So Crystal is here and Dave is here. Say hi guys.
[00:00:20] Dave Herzberg: Hi.
[00:00:21] Crystal Waddell: Hi, Dave.
[00:00:22] Brittany Herzberg: All right, so we're gonna be talking about SEO and fun things, but before we do, we were just talking about my dad's couple of nicknames.
You wanna tell us about how you got the nickname?
[00:00:31] Dave Herzberg: I played football in college and enjoyed it and I liked to hit people one of the nicknames I got was Crazy Horse and that stuck. It was a pretty good one.
But, dudes are lazy.
They don't wanna call you crazy horse after a while, so they just call you crazy.
And so I, they, I got the abbreviated name. It's crazy, which crazy's not bad unless you're talking to a girl on the quad and four guys walk by and call you crazy.
It's kinda hard to get a date that way, but [00:01:00] Eventually I found somebody.
That's why you're here.
[00:01:01] Brittany Herzberg: Right? I know.
[00:01:03] Dave Herzberg: B.
[00:01:03] Brittany Herzberg: Hi everyone. I was just telling my dad that on the podcast and really in life I've started going by B or Brittany.
So I was like, all right, just a heads up. And that's how we ended up on the nickname train.
So I'm really excited that you're here.
We get to chat about some of the stuff that we worked on and it as the people listening, know, it's part of our Father's Day special.
So I'm gonna start us off with the question that I like asking everyone.
And you hinted at a really good answer, but I made you keep it in your head about 15 minutes ago.
So what I like asking everyone is, When it comes to seo o how do you define it? Or how, what do you think of when it comes to seo?
Like how do you explain it?
[00:01:40] Dave Herzberg: I had very little exposure to SEO so SEO was a mystery to me.
And then when people started to try to explain it to me, it seemed like smoke.
And I was trying to corral smoke and figure out what all these different pieces were and how important they were.
So I think I'm still [00:02:00] dealing with the fact that I'm in a room full of smoke and I'm trying to get it organized.
It's not perfect, but it's getting better.
[00:02:06] Brittany Herzberg: It is. It is. And you and I are now able to have pretty intelligible conversations about seo. So
[00:02:12] Dave Herzberg: We are, yes, we are. Whereas in the beginning, you would've had a conversation with yourself and I just would've
[00:02:19] Brittany Herzberg: Yep.
[00:02:19] Dave Herzberg: Sat there and listened.
[00:02:20] Brittany Herzberg: Correct? Yes. Nodded and smiled a few times. Yeah.
[00:02:23] Dave Herzberg: Correct. Appropriately. Yes.
[00:02:25] Brittany Herzberg: I think it's really cool. For me at least. I don't know what you think Crystal, but I think it's almost better to ask people who are so outside of the world of seo
[00:02:34] Crystal Waddell: Yes.
[00:02:34] Brittany Herzberg: What they think of it. Yeah. You think so too?
[00:02:36] Crystal Waddell: Absolutely.
The thing that learned from Crystal from Wix, is the power of what are those things?
Like when you say smoke, it's yes. It's like it's disappearing .
I can't find it,
[00:02:47] Brittany Herzberg: I can't capture it.
[00:02:48] Crystal Waddell: It paints such a great picture, so Yes. I love that.
[00:02:51] Dave Herzberg: Yes. I want to corral it, I just can't.
[00:02:53] Brittany Herzberg: You can cuz you have the right people in your world.
But if you were to try to do it yourself, it's really complicated.
[00:02:59] Dave Herzberg: Yes. [00:03:00] Oh I'm gonna go pretty close to impossible.
[00:03:02] Brittany Herzberg: You might eventually get there. I think my love of research comes from you.
[00:03:07] Dave Herzberg: I do like to research.
[00:03:09] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, you do. Okay. So this leads nicely into how have I helped you when it comes to SEO and your business, your, which we should say, because we like keywords over here.
Your window replacement business. Yeah. For the Raleigh area in North Carolina.
[00:03:23] Dave Herzberg: Very good. I like that. So you're using the actual keywords back and the SEO stuff.
I like that. That's good. Yeah, what have I learned?
When I started, I literally knew nothing. Somebody said seo.
And probably the best description I got early on was you're not really gonna understand it, but it's like doing maintenance on your car and it's something you need to do and you need to do it all the time, but it's not like buying a new set of wheels right?
Where you go out and show everybody your wheels, like maintenances: I changed the oil, I changed the antifreeze. I put new wiper blades on it. Doesn't my car look better?
No, it's the same car. So, that's the [00:04:00] best description I got.
So in the beginning I had that much understanding and now I have just a little bit more.
Starting to understand it.
More like a spider web, right? Where you're trying to tickle things and come down through.
It's kinda like the way the brain stores information. It doesn't store it in one place. You got a whole bunch of different places and it pulls back.
So you have to learn how to go out there and pull it back in, so to speak.
That's my understanding of it.
[00:04:23] Brittany Herzberg: That's great.
I like that. And I was like pointing, if you're watching the video ever, if this ever makes it online, I was pointing cuz Crystal talks about the spider web.
Because you've got your website and then you've got other things too.
[00:04:34] Crystal Waddell: And you're like building your own web,
[00:04:37] Dave Herzberg: correct,
[00:04:37] Brittany Herzberg: yeah.
[00:04:37] Crystal Waddell: the greater web, so yeah.
[00:04:39] Dave Herzberg: Correct.
[00:04:39] Brittany Herzberg: That's true.
[00:04:40] Crystal Waddell: I love it. Keep the analogies coming.
[00:04:42] Brittany Herzberg: This is great.
Okay, so the projects that I helped you with, you have the window replacement company in Raleigh and you wanted to have a website cuz you, you knew the importance of having some web presence.
[00:04:53] Dave Herzberg: Correct.
[00:04:53] Brittany Herzberg: And I essentially begged you to let me help you with copywriting.
[00:04:57] Dave Herzberg: That is correct.
[00:04:58] Brittany Herzberg: So I have a roughly 20 [00:05:00] years of information stuck in my brain and I wanted to use it and I was very glad that you actually let me do that, because I also had an understanding of SEO.
And you were working with another marketing company and they pulled in different service providers. So there was a partner that did seo. There was a partner that did the ad stuff.
There was me that was doing the copywriting and so on. And that was really cool to be able to do that process and then to be able to see the results of it.
So let's start with the process.
How would you explain that process of working with me to have the copywriting with the SEO strategy?
[00:05:36] Dave Herzberg: I would say for me, the most enlightening fact is, and I'll use another analogy: in the old West, if you were a barber, you hung a barber sign out, and if you were a butcher, you hung the butcher sign. And if you were the, the blacksmith, you hung the blacksmith sign. If you ran the bar, you put the, proverbial liquor sign up there, right?
But today, if you go hang your website out,[00:06:00] it's reaching everybody, but that audience is too big, right?
So I think the thing that I learned is that you start with who you're after, and then you try to not only make your site attractive to those folks visually and appealing and somewhat interesting to draw them in, but then you're also using words so you know, you're using words to paint.
The dots on the picture to maybe another analogy, a funnel come through, right?
So you want to pick 'em up at a wider point, and then some people self eliminate and eventually you get down to where you have your website's or your sign, you're out west sign is talking to somebody who wants to rent a room from your hotel, right?
So that's how I, that's how I have learned to understand it.
[00:06:46] Brittany Herzberg: That's good.
[00:06:47] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. That's so crazy that you said that because in my mind I was thinking, okay,
[00:06:52] Dave Herzberg: I'm sorry, did you say crazy? I heard my, yeah,
[00:06:55] Crystal Waddell: but okay. So crazy. What I was wondering
is,[00:07:00] you talked about the Wild, wild West and B says she's been helping you for 20 years. Like how has,
[00:07:05] Brittany Herzberg: oh, listening at least. Listening.
[00:07:06] Crystal Waddell: Okay. Sorry. Not helping, but yeah, listening. She's only been alive for 20 years.
But like, how does, how has marketing windows changed over the time you've been in business. Yeah. Tell us the story. Yeah.
[00:07:16] Dave Herzberg: So easily 25 years ago the prominent way to get leads would've been referral, right?
Somebody is out maybe door knocking, right? They actually didn't have those signs out that said no solicitation.
So people knocked on doors.
And other than that, it would be it probably would've been newspaper.
And actually one of my first bigger experiences with Windows was primarily newspaper driven. And then I worked with another one that was primarily radio driven.
You migrated towards the Val Pack type stuff and they tell you this has been years ago.
I hate to say how many years ago I was [00:08:00] in college, 50% of all marketing advertising dollars are wasted.
The problem is we don't know which half, and now I think it's more like 70% are wasted and we don't know where that 70%, went.
So I think trying to maximize those dollars better because back then you were you might have gone to a home show, if I remember if there was one.
But they would do quirky things like go to an RV show and do a drawing, and they had a window there.
90% of those people aren't interested in Windows.
They wanted your a hundred dollars gift certificate or whatever.
So it very different, obviously a lot more manually, involved. Very expensive, right?
So, to transition though, from those types of leads to expecting, people to call you because nobody goes to the barbershop and gets a lead anymore, or the beauty shop and gets a lead on, oh, who did you get your windows from?
[00:08:55] Brittany Herzberg: Wait, I have one. When I had my massage practice.
This is very personal, but when I [00:09:00] went to a doctor's appointment, I walked out with a client. My doctor sent her daughter to me. Yeah.
[00:09:05] Dave Herzberg: But it's rare, right?
[00:09:06] Crystal Waddell: It's very rare.
In the old days, people would just hang out, at the barber, the beauty salon, and somebody would say, oh, I got new windows and I love them.
Now guess what?
They're looking for a five star review somewhere, right?
And I actually tell my customers that very thing is, I know you're probably happy enough. Now you might tell one or two family members or a neighbor, but guess what?
Nobody listens that way anymore.
And so you need to actually put a review out there so somebody can, who's just looking for somebody just like me.
[00:09:31] Brittany Herzberg: And actually I, my face lit up because we actually now look to strangers for confirmation and I hadn't thought about that.
[00:09:37] Dave Herzberg: Isn't is that weird?
[00:09:38] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, it's bizarre. And yet it makes sense and we'll get into the social proof in a hot second.
But one thing I wanted to clarify is the, you said val pack, the, that's the mailer things that come to you where it's like all the coupons and most of us toss 'em out or keep one or two.
But yeah, crystal had a couple of good connections that she was making with what you said. So I know. Make your comments cuz I know you had some good ones, crystal.[00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Dave Herzberg: Yeah.
[00:10:00] Crystal Waddell: Oh, I was just thinking the marketing spend, you were saying that 50%, you can't tell where it went or where you could or whatever.
And then it's 70% and like, how do you justify marketing when you can't, when you can't classify where the actual return is from?
[00:10:17] Dave Herzberg: Okay. That's really good.
Do you know where the idea of a coupon for, you got buy two orange juices and get one free, do you know where that idea came from?
[00:10:25] Brittany Herzberg: No.
[00:10:26] Dave Herzberg: An effort to track the effectiveness of the ad.
So if I have a paper coupon that's redeemed at the store, I know that ad hit the customer that I was looking for and that's how
[00:10:37] Brittany Herzberg: Oh snap!.
[00:10:38] Dave Herzberg: Yeah. So that's how they completed that circle, right? So these days it's different. A lot of things that are done online are lost because it's very difficult to track in a similar manner.
So you have companies that are popping up that are trying to do, and I'm not gonna call any names out, but they'll attach a phone number that channels so they know [00:11:00] which place it came from or there's others little indicators, but that's the point, reference this when you call back in and we'll give you such and such off.
All those are efforts to prove out that you're, but the, what I've learned about marketing dollars is just kiss 'em goodbye and you hope they come home and do some work.
[00:11:18] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. I knew that was gonna your answer.
[00:11:21] Dave Herzberg: Cause it costs money and there ain't no guarantees.
[00:11:24] Brittany Herzberg: No, there's not.
[00:11:25] Dave Herzberg: So we just wanna improve our odds is what we wanna do.
[00:11:28] Brittany Herzberg: And just for anyone listening there, there are some similarities online compared to what you were just sharing.
I did not know that about coupons. That's really fascinating.
[00:11:38] Dave Herzberg: Yeah.
[00:11:38] Brittany Herzberg: The closest thing that my brain came up with just really quickly was there are different links you can make, certain links.
I don't do ads very much Crystal does. That this person saw your Facebook ad, got on your email list, did da duh. And that's how they became a sale.
[00:11:51] Dave Herzberg: Oh, that's ideal, right?
[00:11:52] Brittany Herzberg: That is ideal.
But it's harder to track that now because of some of the settings and preferences and people are allowed to opt out of [00:12:00] things like that now, so it's a little bit harder.
[00:12:02] Dave Herzberg: It's an imperfect world, so here's what I've come down to, and I'm much more basic than a lot of these folks that work at a higher level like you. So here's what I look at.
Do I have the name and phone number?
Can I go see the person and if they agree to have me come see 'em, did I make the sale?
Hey, all I want to know is did I make enough sales to cover my marketing costs?
And if I did, I'm gonna keep doing it. And if I didn't, I have to move to something else.
[00:12:25] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, exactly. Oh, this is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
So this is a good place to transition into local seo because I have some experience with that with the massage practice, you have experience with that, with the window company, and then Crystal even has some experience as well.
So local SEO is really helping you get found on a local level.
You're not pitching yourself.
For example, with me, with copywriting, I can help anyone really anywhere as long as they speak English.
I can't do anything that's in a different language. But with the massage practice, I had to keep it very narrow. I was in like the Raleigh Durham, Apex Carey area, [00:13:00] and I had to really like stick to that area.
So for you, with local SEO and thinking of local seo, what's maybe some of the stuff like, I know you and I have had this conversation. I know you've had this conversation with other people in your world, other marketing agencies and things. So what are some of the tidbits about SEO on a local level that you've picked up?
[00:13:20] Dave Herzberg: I think, the fact that it's on the local level changes everything, right? So that's me hanging my sign back out like in the old West. Now when I'm tickling the web to get what I want I'm setting a a geo boundary, right?
So if I can set a geo boundary, there's there's there's advantages that to my business because if I have a very good installer and that installer spends twice as long driving to a job two hours away I can only bill for the work that they do when they get there.
I don't get to bill for the drive time, and that's also missed opportunity to use their time and their skills [00:14:00] under the job.
So I want to operate with, and I do operate within about an hour's drive of my home base here. So to me it's very important.
It's very important to identify that and then to build and work off of that. So very important to have the local aspect.
[00:14:15] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah.
[00:14:16] Crystal Waddell: I guess I'm curious, when you guys created the website, did you create, specific pages to attract, those people or those cities?
How did that work?
[00:14:27] Dave Herzberg: No is the answer. That's the simple answer.
And then I have a belief you can make your website way too busy, right? I don't, yeah, I think it's good to appeal to your broader message to your target customer, right?
But I don't think I wanna slip down and get overly specific and make my website.
More than busy and lose people. Because it just looks like it's hard to navigate for example. I'm learning I think to to simplify, which is harder.
It sounds easy, but it's not. So if you want [00:15:00] to be laser focused leave a few ambiguities there for them to have to search out, maybe about you.
But, so don't try to explain everything, but so simpler is better is what I think I've learned to make it.
[00:15:13] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. And you and I have talked about, we've tossed around the idea of having a blog.
Where we could go into detail on the products, some of the specifications, even talking about like neighborhoods and things like that.
We did weave the location into the copy.
We did weave that into I think maybe one or two of the URLs, like the links that you click.
But I wonder, I haven't asked you this directly, but I wonder if your concern is with making a lot of content and with having a robust site with a lot of blog posts, do you feel like, or do you worry that it would confuse your ideal customer?
Or do you worry that it would send them on too many tangents kind of thing?
[00:15:53] Dave Herzberg: When I say too busy I've seen window websites that are 20 pages long
[00:15:58] Brittany Herzberg: and just like the main [00:16:00] website pages you're saying not a blog.
[00:16:02] Dave Herzberg: No, I I didn't study the 20 pages and neither did anybody else.
That's my point.
I think you can bury the message in the obvious and not have to make them go third page deep, two paragraphs in to find the answer, right?
So, I think the challenging part is to bury it in the obvious, make a statement instead of sending them to go find it, so to speak.
I don't think they're gonna spend that much time there, especially when they maybe just don't know that much about you.
You were talking about, we looked to the stranger to give us confirmation, right?
And by the way everybody that's bought a dress at a dress shop that's a stranger that just told you, you look hot in that dress, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So it's not a new concept. Yeah. And the truth is everybody wants confirmation.
So when you're done with the transaction, you should always be the first one to tell 'em you made a wise decision, right? It's just a good business practice, right?
And then it extends out to the review thing that we're talking about.
So when [00:17:00] they're reading, they wanna know, did somebody like me buy?
And I have an example it's taken me two weeks to get this lady's five star review.
I went to her mother's house, it's on the edge of our territory. And I told her when I got there, and I tell a lot of people this, I'm sorry ma'am, I may not be the right guy to do the job for you, but I'm here to give you some information.
And we'll sort that out.
And they're wondering like, why don't you wanna do my job?
So I've already done a takeaway, so they want to get you back, right?
The mom said to me my daughter and I are gonna be buying these windows together. And I said, that's fine. And she said I don't want the cheapest thing you have.
And I looked at her windows and she goes, yeah, those are the cheapest. I already got 'em.
So she bought Windows 20 years ago and she wasn't happy for 20 years.
[00:17:42] Brittany Herzberg: Oh, wow.
[00:17:42] Dave Herzberg: And they were vinyl replacement windows. My point is about the five star review is I later met with the daughter.
I told 'em what the experience was gonna be. They had already seen that on the website, read the messages. They felt good.
Although I'm still relatively new.
I told 'em what the [00:18:00] experience was gonna be and dog on if that isn't exactly the experience they had.
But one of the things I said in the email is I said when you get a chance, please provide the review that we discussed.
I said, another mother and daughter combination are out there looking for it.
[00:18:14] Brittany Herzberg: That's good. Exactly. Yay.
[00:18:16] Dave Herzberg: You have to almost coach 'em up.
And I tell folks, if I did something wrong, please put it in the review, but also say that I didn't have to chase him down.
He came back and did what he said he was gonna do. He did it in a timely manner, and now I'm happy.
Hey, we're not perfect. We're just able to get the job done in a complete manner and not leave you hanging.
So I have to almost coach and put something bad in there, right?
And I'm not saying bad, put something disappointing in there.
But then redeem me and say that I came back in, right?
Because then that's gonna look real world to people, right?
[00:18:48] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah.
[00:18:48] Dave Herzberg: Don't just say, oh, I had a great experience.
[00:18:51] Brittany Herzberg: And you did something as you were talking about, continuing to follow up with her.
But as you were continuing to follow up with her, you did something that I tell my clients to do.
[00:19:00] Be specific. Yes. Give them specifics. Yes. Did I show up on time?
Did you get the experience you expected to have? How did you feel when I was there?
Think the more specific you can be, the more specific the actual words are going to be that they give you.
And that backs up your seo and supports your seo. Cuz there are keywords hidden in testimonials that we don't always realize.
[00:19:19] Dave Herzberg: There's a powerful psychological dynamic that worked with what you're saying. I'm not a psychologist.
[00:19:24] Brittany Herzberg: Say more.
[00:19:24] Dave Herzberg: But I read Psychology Today Magazine for 10 years.
Just for, because I liked it. And what it said is, strangers in a strange city being attacked in a group of people, if you call out for help, nobody responds.
But if you point to somebody and say, Mr. In the Blue Coat, would you help me?
Yes. So it's a powerful psychological dynamic that you're actually using to tap into something that looks like me.
I can relate to that. That sounds like me, and that sounds like my mom. I can relate to that. That's all I'm saying.
[00:19:56] Brittany Herzberg: That's a really good point. And that actually ties into something [00:20:00] seemingly random, but it actually applies here.
Something came out where this mom had lost her daughter at the playground. She was watching her, had eyes on her, but the kid went around to behind one certain pole and mom couldn't see her anymore.
So she remembered she had seen this video, heard on TikTok or something, instead of just calling out like, Hey Britney, where's Britney?
Britney, where are you? It was little girl.
Brown curly hair in the pink shirt, little girl.
And she just kept saying it and then it got other people to look and to help her find the daughter.
So being specific has multiple applications.
[00:20:31] Dave Herzberg: Yeah, it does. And you know what you can say, it feels a little uncomfortable to do that, but honestly when I'm in my interview, here's what I tell people.
I tell 'em, look people are satisfied when they are told what they're gonna receive.
They receive what they were told they were gonna receive, and they're not getting something unexpected or something they expected that was not communicated, wouldn't be in it.
So if I give you all those things, [00:21:00] Then here's what I tell you.
B I feel like I've earned the right to ask you for a five star review, because that's a complete experience.
We described it, you've got it, you're happy with it.
Now you've got the right to say no. But I'm gonna keep asking.
So I don't think that's uncomfortable, right?
I don't think that's wrong.
I think we feel awkward, but listen, if you've got a thousand people at the mall, you could go ask for a review. They would be worthless even if you got three. But if I've got five customers, shouldn't I chase those five customers to get three reviews? Those three reviews are gonna mean something to somebody.
[00:21:34] Brittany Herzberg: The one other thing I wanted to connect the dots on is that the, like essentially the art of follow up.
And it's something that's taken me a while to get comfortable with.
But really in the last, I would say year or two, I've gotten really comfortable with it.
And I've even had client, this is for you listening.
I've even had clients say, thank you for following up.
Yeah, I got busy, I had, life happened. I've been sick. My kid had this. Like how many times? If you think of [00:22:00] yourself, I had, I got my haircut recently.
I had that link to write a review sitting in my, I think it was in my text message folder for three weeks.
And I had every intention, every single day it was on my to-do list and I kept forgetting.
There's one day I was like, I need to do this. I sent it to myself. I did it that day.
It took five minutes, but I had to keep reminding myself to do it. So following up is usually not a bad thing.
[00:22:24] Dave Herzberg: One more thought is because of your depth and breadth of your customer base, right?
Everybody doesn't fit in an neat little niche that says they're a 30 something that are familiar with electronics.
So here's my other point. Make it easy, right?
So one of the things that we did is on the website, it says, start your review here, and when you click it, it literally takes you to the Google page.
[00:22:51] Brittany Herzberg: Yes.
[00:22:52] Dave Herzberg: So they start typing because too many people have say, have said, I don't know. Where do I leave that? How do I get there?
I don't wanna educate and I [00:23:00] don't wanna make 'em feel bad.
So I would just say make it as easy as possible. So I've seen them use those, are they URLs?
[00:23:06] Brittany Herzberg: Yes.
[00:23:07] Dave Herzberg: But whatever you need to do to make it easy, because it's not that we don't want to give the review, it's that, it's complicated.
It's a little bit harder. I don't have time to sit down and think about it.
And then the other thing is, give them a couple of examples of things that happen like I did with Taywanna.
[00:23:24] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, exactly.
[00:23:26] Dave Herzberg: And that, and makes it easier then too, cuz they're saying, oh, I know what he wants to hear.
I know what was unique about my experience. Anyway. Yeah. Hope that helps. Yeah.
[00:23:34] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, there's the testimonial template that I have that is, I know we're like mind blown over here.
The testimonial template that I have is actually it's like a madlibs experience. It's fill in the blank, it's complete the sentence.
So I'm getting you started and then I just want you to fill it in, which is, just a different way of doing what you're saying.
And the other thing that I like to point out to people is that it doesn't just have to be a Google Review.
You could email me back your thoughts, email [00:24:00] me the fill in the blank parts, send a message to me, do a voice memo.
Some people are really comfortable on video, you could do a video testimonial.
So there's lots of different options.
And as you're working with people, like you do, and I do, and Crystal does, you get a sense of what they like to do and where they're comfortable and where they might shine the brightest.
So yeah, just think about that.
[00:24:18] Dave Herzberg: Crystal trying to get in to say something?
[00:24:20] Brittany Herzberg: She probably is,
[00:24:21] Dave Herzberg: let her get in. I want to add one more thing to that, but,
[00:24:24] Crystal Waddell: oh I'm just, I'm learning, and I think this is so valuable because so many business owners who, just chart their own path as entrepreneurs, they don't have a sales background.
And without the sales background, it's really hard to create an offer and then follow up and then also have the definition of done and done well.
[00:24:46] Dave Herzberg: That's important. You have to. You have to define it. They have to agree to it, but once they agree to it, it's in their head that they agreed to that. And I'll give you another example.
Cause this was a creative one. Right up the street to me, Brittany, [00:25:00] Janice.
We messed her windows up and we did.
We didn't get the measurement just right, and it was a complicated window, so it took four more weeks. And, she called a couple times.
And so her windows just went in this week. So everything went in. And so I was up there and I said, Janice.
She'd written me a check, she'd handed it to me and I said, Janice, I said, I'm not sure exactly how many stars you would give me if it on a review, but if you would be so kind as to do a review...
so you can even take a negative.
And you know what she said to me before I left?
She said, oh, David, things happened. That's no problem, right?
So there's a lot of grace, but as an owner, we might think there's no grace there and they're not gonna give me a review.
You know what I'm asking everybody?
[00:25:46] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. Because you never know.
[00:25:49] Crystal Waddell: In the past, It's been, look, if I make a mistake, let me own up to it. And people move on. People are generally forgiving.
[00:25:56] Dave Herzberg: Yes, they are.
[00:25:56] Crystal Waddell: Laurie-Ann, when she was on talking about public speaking, she said that when you [00:26:00] go in and you speak to a big group of people, they're for you.
They want you to be successful. Yes. They're if you're putting in my windows, I want you to be successful because the house, I'm gonna be here for a while.
With social media and just like the culture.
I don't think it's that business owners don't wanna be honest and truthful.
Sometimes I just think they've forgotten that truth about people want to just understand and then they'll forgive you.
People are so afraid of making a mistake and having someone else call them out publicly for it.
That they then wanna bury it.
So I just think that's something we really need to pull out here and just say, Hey look, you're not gonna get all five star reviews.
[00:26:37] Brittany Herzberg: And you don't want it to be, cause then it looks fake. It actually does look fake.
And I've had people talk about that. Sorry.
[00:26:44] Dave Herzberg: I'm the only window provider in this area that goes in and gives five guarantees.
And one of my guarantees is a hundred percent satisfaction guarantee. But I'm gonna tell you right here, when I pull that out, it's in print.
When I pull it out and start to read it, I tell 'em, guess what? This doesn't say. [00:27:00] You hear me saying a hundred percent satisfaction guaranteed or your money back.
But what Crystal just said is the truth. She's pulling for that provider to do a good job. And so here's what I say.
I read it, it's a little paragraph and it says if after you make payment, after the job's complete, if something mechanically, structurally, appearance wise is wrong, then what I'm gonna do is make every effort possible to make that right.
If I can't, then I'm gonna go get the manufacturer's rep and have a third party come in.
And if they make a comment that the window wasn't put in right, I'm gonna take the window out and put it in the way they say if we need to get a building engineer to tell me that the structural member across the top of the window is not sound, and that wasn't my fault.
I'm gonna bring that engineer in so you have the information.
So what am I saying? I'm not going away. Mm-hmm. You want your windows done.
My hundred percent satisfaction guarantee is, I'm gonna see it through to [00:28:00] the end.
And that plays to what you're saying, Crystal.
[00:28:03] Brittany Herzberg: I know, this is good.
[00:28:05] Crystal Waddell: I did wanna go back to something you said about doing giveaways. Just recently I was in a big collaboration with some other online business owners that sell to a similar demographic.
They sell to moms or whatever, but I tend to sell to moms of older kids.
Whereas a lot of contributors in this group, they were selling to moms of younger kids.
But I just think that collaboration needs to be strategic, I guess is the point. Like what you were talking about, like you don't wanna just say, Hey, I'm gonna have this giveaway and get a bunch of email addresses or whatever.
If they're not interested in your product.
But I'm excited about this list that I've got because I do have specific products for mothers of young children.
And so now I can take that segment and actually market directly to them with, the things that they would wanna buy for me, like wooden letters for their walls and stuff like that.
[00:28:55] Dave Herzberg: So one of the ways they turned a non-interested party into an [00:29:00] interested party is they said, if we send our salesperson out and you sit through the presentation, we'll give you a $50 gift card when it's over.
So they believe that they could turn somebody not interested into Windows.
If we sat there and talked to 'em long enough and they would sit there and pay attention, at least feign attention.
So they could get the $50 gift card.
Lemme tell you how I took that and turned it around.
I didn't believe that was a wise use of money, but take the concept and say, is there something in it for me?
I found something in it for me.
So I had a customer or two that hadn't gotten back to me and I felt like they were interested, but they weren't like, ready to do something right now.
So what I do is send 'em an email and I'd say, listen I know you're a busy person and probably still looking at your options on the windows, but hey, I wanted to let you know we have a promotion going on.
And that promotion is good for the next 30 days and it will allow me to give you a $200 gift card or a hundred, whatever you wanna make it, a hundred dollars.
And I said gas card, because at the time, gas prices were [00:30:00] high, right?
And so this lady calls me back and I got a really nice sale off of it, right?
And so when I went to her house, instead of doing a hundred dollars gift card, this lady now she's a health nut a coach, a life coach real estate, you know what I'm saying?
Full of energy meets me at the door.
She's got two, two or three grown 12 to 15 year old kids.
And we're having this conversation. She did the electronic signing in the contract, and I took a hundred dollar bill and I put it in her hands.
And I said, now you go get something that's good for you. You get your nails done, you get a pedicure.
You know what I'm saying? She didn't care about that gas no more.
That money was hers. So I'm just saying you can find ways to take small little things and turn it a little bit and make it powerful for you.
I wish I had more people to call cuz I could use that again, right?
But I have a 75% closing rate, so I don't leave a lot of stuff behind, right?
Industry average is 30%. I ran 56% for 10 years and now I'm running about 75% now that I own the [00:31:00] company.
[00:31:00] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, I think we're gonna have to have you back to talk about sales.
[00:31:04] Dave Herzberg: It's just psychology.
What you guys talked about that I love and you do it here is, and it's a phrase that I feel like I've coined right?
But I haven't written about it.
It's conversational selling because I learned more. Exactly. I learned more. I told you I listened. People, I learned more. I had a guy in my office the other day and I needed something specific from him.
He's a manufacturer's a director of sales. And so I did what you talked about.
I asked for something very specific. Instead of saying, Hey, I'd like a 5% discount or give me a discount on my product, I said, no, I wanna buy this specific glass for this reason, for that price.
And he sent me back the thing and said, you've got it for 90 days.
Now I got it because I asked for it and I asked specifically for it.
Lemme back up. I asked him a question cuz he's new to the company. How do you see your product line up and where specifically do you see this product?
And he said, that's a really good question. I'm gonna turn the tables on you and I'm gonna ask you that question.
And he said, then I'm gonna give you [00:32:00] my answer, which I will not change after you give.
And I said, oh I'm happy to make a statement. I said, I love making statements, but I just find I learned more when I ask questions and
[00:32:10] Brittany Herzberg: He's got really good lines.
[00:32:11] Dave Herzberg: He was doing the same thing to me. That was a pro right there.
Yeah, A pro loves working with a pro, right? Yeah. I'm like, and I was calling him out, I was like, okay, I get it, but I know why you're doing it. It's the same reason I do it. You're gonna learn more from my answer than making your statement.
[00:32:27] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. I'm also gonna say something that's probably a little bit controversial, but it's just what I've seen in my life and experience.
Had I not grown up hearing a lot of the stuff that you talk about.
I'm a woman. We don't ask those things. We don't do those things. We don't have the same behaviors as guys. So I might not ask about something like that.
You said earlier, I can't remember even if we were recording or not, but you said crystal and I are too nice to each other sometimes.
Yeah, we are. But it's also it's in our nature. It's how we are. And at the same time we're growing and learning and figuring out what boundaries are and what [00:33:00] the help that I think we each need.
And like we're figuring that out. But not every person gets exposed to stuff like that.
Even just thinking to ask about that, whether it's a raise or a special offer or even if just a collaboration, like I've been in a collaboration group this month, and it's like even that people don't always think to do.
[00:33:19] Crystal Waddell: I feel like I have so much more clarity in my own approach and how I want to set up my offers, because I've always known that you've gotta be confident in your process before you can actually sell the process.
[00:33:30] Dave Herzberg: Correct.
[00:33:30] Crystal Waddell: But the way that you shared today really drove it home for me and really made it clear.
I hope that, for our friends that are listening, that they have the same kind of epiphanies and Yeah. I would love to talk to you again in the future. This is fantastic.
[00:33:44] Dave Herzberg: Sure. I love talking about sales and I
[00:33:47] Brittany Herzberg: Yes, he does.
[00:33:48] Dave Herzberg: In marketing and sales, I've been doing it a long time.
And yeah I find you have to first like people, right?
And so I start with that. Second, I want to help people, right?
And [00:34:00] sometimes we think we're helping by saying something, but usually we need to learn something first before we say something to help them.
And then you can only help the willing, right?
So you have to have somebody who's open-minded enough to want to turn this thing around and then try something a little bit different, and then maybe experience that and then they can grow from there, right?
One more thing I'll say. I used to manage people and I was a very highly effective manager of other people just based on their results, not on my opinion.
I would always have them write their own review before I wrote their review.
And what people tend to do is they're harsher on themselves than I'm gonna be.
So I would have them write the review and then I would not like detail just all the notes, and they would come and have a meeting with me and they'd put it on the desk and I'd start to read it and I'd say, I learned something a long time ago in life.
Never build a file against yourself.
This stuff right here. I don't need to know that. [00:35:00] This stuff right here that doesn't apply.
You have an opportunity here to build on this point.
Marketing is a psychological process.
Manipulation is considered a negative concept.
But if you look at the Webster's manipulation is the masterful workings of blah, blah, blah.
So there's positive manipulation and there's negative manipulation. So maybe we should start with the fact that we want to get people to a good point.
That's a positive outcome, that's a positive manipulation.
So I am a manipulator of people on a positive note that's for their benefit and for my, there can be a mutually bene, it's not and mutually exclusive. It can be good for each party.
[00:35:39] Brittany Herzberg: That speaks to one thing that I talk about a lot, which is intention.
It's one of the values that I have in my business and it's something that I feel like, especially recently, so many people have seemed to have like just floated out of their head and they have so lost touch with it.
So yeah. I'm glad that you said that. And I think.
Crystal and I both had that moment, jaw [00:36:00] dropping moment when you said not to build a file against yourself, because I think a lot of us do and we do that.
Yes. That's like the top performing job that we all have. Yes.
[00:36:08] Dave Herzberg: And some salespeople do that in the sale.
Look, yes. They aren't gonna have any problem finding the negatives.
So what you need to do is stay on point with your positives, and when something like that comes up, you have a ready answer for it .
Again, nobody's perfect. Yes, that happened. I'll give you the background.
I'll fill it out a little bit better for you. Not saying it couldn't happen again, but it's highly unlikely.
I don't make the same mistake twice, but don't sit there and dwell on it.
I'll give you one example. There's a company's franchise that's up in Chicago. They took money from people for windows.
They never delivered, and that reflected very badly.
And it's recently, it happened. And so another franchise of the same name in another area said, maybe I should run an ad that says I'm, basically I'm with that franchise, but I don't do business like that.
And my attitude is, no, you don't need to start with a negative.
They're gonna, [00:37:00] does that make sense?
[00:37:01] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. At first I was like, oh, that's a good idea. And then I was like, oh, wait, now that was a bad idea.
[00:37:05] Dave Herzberg: Yeah, that's a bad idea.
[00:37:06] Crystal Waddell: There's really no upside.
[00:37:07] Dave Herzberg: No, that's a bad idea.
[00:37:08] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. Let me just go attach myself to this one that really did a number on people.
[00:37:13] Dave Herzberg: A lot of things we do are marketing driven. They are sales driven.
When I had people I would interview and I did interviews a lot different, but one of the things I would always say is, do you, and I'll say this b to you do you think of yourself as a salesperson?
And most people go. Most people go, no, but I understand.
[00:37:31] Brittany Herzberg: But me 10 years ago would've said no.
[00:37:33] Dave Herzberg: All right, so let's take that 10 years ago, because here's what I would say back to that person.
Oh let me paint a scenario and see how you answer it. So let's say you're 16 years old. Do you have your driver's license and there's one car in the family and you need it Friday night?
Are you a good salesperson?
[00:37:47] Brittany Herzberg: Yep.
[00:37:48] Dave Herzberg: Yeah. Yeah. So it gets down to intention or motivation, right? Or right.
So if I attach myself to that feeling, then it's easier for me to do things that aren't as comfortable for me.
Does that [00:38:00] make sense?
[00:38:00] Crystal Waddell: I'm coming up with show ideas over here.
[00:38:02] Brittany Herzberg: Yep. I have five things to add to our topics list.
[00:38:05] Dave Herzberg: If I can get invited back, I don't know if y'all would give five stars for my performance, but we'll have to ask the
[00:38:11] Brittany Herzberg: listeners.
[00:38:12] Crystal Waddell: Oh, we actually, that's a good time to ask for if you haven't reviewed the show and you're listening right now.
[00:38:18] Dave Herzberg: There you go.
[00:38:18] Crystal Waddell: Please go there and leave a five star review.
[00:38:21] Dave Herzberg: You have a loyal base of people who pay attention, right?
But they're busy. So I think what you do is you say, if you don't mind, could you do it today? You don't. If you don't mind, could you do it today?
Take five minutes. I know today's gonna be busy. You're gonna fix dinner, whatnot. When dinner's over and the kids are off playing and the dishes are put up in the dishwasher, could you take five minutes and log back on, give us a five star review?
We would really appreciate it. It helps build our credibility for other people just like you that are looking for the same type of information.
[00:38:52] Crystal Waddell: Crazy over here. He just said, we're gonna count on you to do that. Yeah. Is that what you said?
[00:38:57] Dave Herzberg: That is correct.
[00:38:58] Crystal Waddell: The call to action
[00:38:59] Brittany Herzberg: closing line?
[00:38:59] Crystal Waddell: [00:39:00] Yes. Because now we're in it together.
[00:39:02] Dave Herzberg: Correct.
[00:39:02] Brittany Herzberg: We are.
[00:39:03] Crystal Waddell: That's the psychology that just built the relationship because I speak to a lot of people who listen to our show, And I know you do too, B.
So we are in this thing together and we're all in it to, build our businesses and learn from each other and help each other.
Yeah. We're counting on you to, if this is helpful to you to help spread the word, but at the end of the day, we're just so glad you're here.
See that's me backing it up and then going, you don't have to do it.
No, please do it.
[00:39:31] Dave Herzberg: You just need to, I'll give you a clue.
Some things you just need to leave laying there.
Because the next person that speaks is losing. In that situation, you don't need any further clarification of the point.
You made your point. Let it lay and it will. It will get a better result.
[00:39:48] Brittany Herzberg: That's good.
[00:39:50] Crystal Waddell: That is very good. On a long list of problems, that's probably a number one.
[00:39:54] Brittany Herzberg: We're not leading with that though. Remember?
[00:39:56] Crystal Waddell: I'm just being honest. I'm
[00:39:57] Brittany Herzberg: No, I know. I know. I know.
[00:39:58] Crystal Waddell: I'm very self-aware. So it's [00:40:00] like this is a great coaching moment.
And so I appreciate that.
[00:40:03] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. Did you do any coaching? I know you managed people, but outside of that...
[00:40:07] Dave Herzberg: The answer is not officially.
I'm a student of psychology. I'm a student of human nature.
Every opportunity where you're interacting with a customer, you feel like you're working to convince, but you ought to be looking for something that's in there that you can use with another customer.
I can't tell you how many times a customer has said a great line, and then I turn right around to the next one.
I say, you won't believe this, but the last person I spoke to on this very same issue, here's what they said.
It's a beautiful thing to do, right?
So, you have to be aware enough in the situation to be not only a participant, but then a bit of an outside viewer, and then write those things down.
And people love to hear those examples because it pulls them in even more.
[00:40:53] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, the, every time you and I talk about business, it's really great because I realize that we do a lot of the same things and [00:41:00] yet we haven't really talked about it.
[00:41:01] Dave Herzberg: Correct.
[00:41:01] Brittany Herzberg: So I wonder if it's just like in my DNA, cuz this totally was, yeah.
But I did a lot of that with massage therapy to the point where I would keep a notepad.
I started getting one of those like big, four by six notepad every single time.
And I would tell my clients if I ever walked away from them on the table, like they're undressed on the table, they say something great, I'm like, hold on, I gotta write this down.
That was too good. And I did it. And they were flattered by it.
But then they also were happy that they were able to help someone and they thought it was cool that they could help someone else. Correct.
[00:41:28] Dave Herzberg: Correct.
[00:41:28] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. I love that.
[00:41:30] Dave Herzberg: And most of us, and I'm just gonna say not about Crystal, cuz I'm sure she's the exception, but most of us, it just goes right over our head.
It's the opportunity sails by.
And then there goes four or five opportunities to help somebody else that's just like that, right?
And so if you want those four or five, you focus on them and not on you.
And when you're not focused on you, other people see that the focus is on them and on their situation and on their growing as a person.
And then they join to [00:42:00] you in your situation a little bit easier.
[00:42:02] Brittany Herzberg: And we've even had people say that they like hearing... Crystal and I don't know everything about seo, nor do we claim to.
In fact, we embrace the fact that we don't know everything about seo. And we,
[00:42:12] Dave Herzberg: it's hard to know about smoke, isn't it?
[00:42:13] Brittany Herzberg: That is nice to hear that it's appreciated because that's, I think that's really important too. At least to me. I don't wanna speak for you as well.
[00:42:21] Crystal Waddell: Absolutely. Yeah. I was a teacher. And that's part of teaching is learning.
And the fact is, a lot of the kids, they're bringing in new knowledge, what we call prior knowledge into the classroom that may be new to me.
So if you don't have an open mind about what you can learn from other people, or that some information may change or be new, then you're gonna have a hard time because the world is moving so fast.
It's a good time to be humble.
[00:42:46] Dave Herzberg: Correct.
You can take a weakness and without too much work, you can turn a weakness into a strength.
And in life what we tend to do is we embrace our strengths and [00:43:00] we build on our strengths.
You have to round yourself out. If you don't round yourself out, you're gonna appeal to a very narrow niche and maybe wear out, you know what I'm saying?
So better to be humble, better to learn from others, better to try something new. And you might be shocked that it works, right? Try one thing and then build on that.
Do that one thing for 30 to 60 days, and then do one more thing.
And you might find it by the end of the six months or a year, you've moved quite a bit.
And maybe broaden yourself as a business owner, a person a spouse, whatever, right?
[00:43:35] Brittany Herzberg: we appreciate you. This is great. If you wanna have him come back and talk about sales, let us know. And don't forget we're counting on you to leave the review.
[00:43:43] Dave Herzberg: There you go. Good job. I'm happy to help anybody who's open-minded enough to listen.
And I think there's some nuggets in there. It's, it's not as complicated as we think, but it's also not as easy as we think, right?
You have to intentionally apply the tools to get the result.
If you just wing it, you're gonna get [00:44:00] a, I just wing it result, right? Yeah. So you wanna be more intentional. Okay. Yeah. I'll come back and talk about sales, marketing and psychology. How's that?
[00:44:08] Brittany Herzberg: All right. That'd be amazing. All right thank you. All right. We'll catch you guys on the next episode. Bye. Bye. Bye.