Website SEO's BFF: User Experience Design w/ Susan Reoch

This transcript is machine generated and has not been edited for errors.

[00:00:00] Brittany Herzberg: hello and welcome back. You are listening to the Simple and Smart SEO show.

[00:00:04] Brittany Herzberg: So today we are talking all things seo, o and ux. If you don't know what that stands for, you're gonna find out in just a hot second because we have our friend Susan

[00:00:12] Brittany Herzberg: susan Reoch. Nailed it. Sweet. So say hello. Introduce yourself, crystal. You're there too. Say hi, . Hello.

[00:00:22] Susan Reoch: Hi. Hi, everyone. I'm Susan Rioc, which is I always tell people it's like Reebok without the bee. Yeah. I find it the funky spelling throws people off, but it's, yeah, it's good.

[00:00:33] Susan Reoch: That's the way to do it. I like to say that I straddle the worlds of ux, which it stands for user experience, and I'm sure we're gonna unpack that a bit more over the next half hour or so.

[00:00:44] Susan Reoch: And conversion copywriting, which means that I craft killer conversion copy and optimize digital strategies using the princip. Of ux. And I'm also the founder of a weekly newsletter, the UX Factor, and an Epic UX group coaching program for copywriters Beyond web copy, which are [00:01:00] both, I think, very needed resources for entrepreneurs, biz owners and copywriters, who just wanna connect with real people, but also drive results for their business.

[00:01:09] Brittany Herzberg: Yes. That's so lovely. And of course, I love asking a certain question, which we'll get to in a second. But I do want to just give you some street cred here on the podcast because I have, like I said, I've written your case study, so I learned all about your Beyond Web copy. Wait.

[00:01:23] Crystal Waddell: You wrote her case study?

[00:01:25] Crystal Waddell: Sure did.

[00:01:27] Brittany Herzberg: Oh, cool. I didn't know that. This is Susan .

[00:01:30] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, no I misunderstood. I thought you said you read her case study.

[00:01:34] Brittany Herzberg: Oh, no, girl. I wrote it. Okay. Typed it.

[00:01:38] Brittany Herzberg: So that was fascinating to. Learn about, watch the interview, write about, so she knows her stuff, but also the newsletter is amazing. And if you're not on her newsletter, you need to be, cuz she writes some really amazing newsletters.

[00:01:52] Crystal Waddell: I was gonna say, when you said UX newsletter, I put it in the chat with a smiley face cuz I was like, oh, I need to sign up for that.

[00:01:58] Crystal Waddell: So yeah, you do. ,

[00:01:59] Brittany Herzberg: [00:02:00] they're really good emails. So the thing that I love to ask all of our people, and there's no wrong answer, there are only right answers. How do you define seo? Or what do you think of when you think of seo?

[00:02:10] Susan Reoch: When I think of seo, I think about getting more people to your website.

[00:02:15] Susan Reoch: That's what I think about as a copywriter, I think about keywords and keyword placement and making sure that they're hyper relevant to what the page is all about or the content is all about and making sure that you are getting the most valuable people to see it.

[00:02:34] Brittany Herzberg: I love it. That's beautiful.

[00:02:36] Brittany Herzberg: I'm done here, .

[00:02:36] Crystal Waddell: I think it sounds wonderful and if you don't know anything about me, I have an e-commerce store, and then I help people with their seo. But as I was diving into how to make my e-commerce store better, I discovered UX and I was like, The user experience. This is amazing. Like this.

[00:02:54] Crystal Waddell: This is what I was created to do. Yeah. So I was so excited that you're here and I wanna know [00:03:00] like how you got started in ux, especially if you came from an education background. Tell us all the things.

[00:03:06] Brittany Herzberg: Crystal's all excited. I love it. I love making these introductions. .

[00:03:10] Susan Reoch: I'm so excited.

[00:03:11] Susan Reoch: I actually got started in UX 12 years ago. Yes, 12 years ago I got started in UX at booking.com -

[00:03:18] Crystal Waddell: Booking dot, yeah!

[00:03:19] Susan Reoch: Yeah, that's right. So I forgot that slogan. Yeah, it was amazing actually. I really lucked out. So I was living in Amsterdam also. Amazing. I'd given up teaching at that point and I'd been working in publishing and I saw this dream job, which was, living on the, working on the canals of Amsterdam, writing content about travel and hotels, and I was just like, I need to get that job,

[00:03:43] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, you did.

[00:03:43] Susan Reoch: Anyway, I did. I did, and I was, I went in as a content writer. And -eventually I got promoted into their UX writing team which was just amazing. And it was really early days, so we weren't even called UX writers back then. I thought what I was doing was copywriting. I didn't know, like these little bits of [00:04:00] microcopy and all these ab tests and everything like that.

[00:04:02] Susan Reoch: That's what I thought. Copywriters everywhere were doing. , . So when I got back to Australia, when I left Amsterdam and left that job, sadly, and got back to Australia. I was like, I'm a copywriter, . And all the job descriptions I was reading, I was like, this is really different to what I do did before. But I actually ended up getting a job in a digital agency that did a lot of seo.

[00:04:24] Susan Reoch: So I really got to hone my actual conversion copy and SEO skills there. And when I started my own business three years ago, sorry, I'm taking big jumps

[00:04:34] Brittany Herzberg: no, it's perfect.

[00:04:35] Susan Reoch: But when I started my own business three years ago, I was. So confused at first, cuz I was like, do I go after my UX writing clients or do I go after my conversion copy clients?

[00:04:45] Susan Reoch: Cuz I love them both. And I had two businesses in a way, but what I found was that, The clients that I did UX writing for and helped them build, like apps and more like functional websites. So if you think like something that most people will use [00:05:00] on a daily basis might be their banking website.

[00:05:02] Susan Reoch: You might have your banking app on your phone, but when you log in on desktop, like the website, the functional website that you use to do your banking, so crafting the little bits of microcopy and thinking about the user flows and stuff like, So the clients that I had like that, they would also need me to write their emails, their landing pages, like every now and then, the odd social media caption, things like this.

[00:05:26] Susan Reoch: And I was like, hang on, everyone's telling me these two things are separate. I don't think they're separate. I think they go together.

[00:05:36] Brittany Herzberg: we both agree with you. For those of you who are not watching this video, if it ever makes it to the delight of day, like Crystal and I are both like Uhhuh, .

[00:05:43] Crystal Waddell: Okay, so this is what's so crazy, Susan.

[00:05:46] Crystal Waddell: It's as I'm going through the learnings of the internet and all the things that I've went through in the last few years, I love to make connections between things, and I've said several times, like recently, I don't know if I'm like on some [00:06:00] soapbox or something, I feel like there's so many integrated.

[00:06:03] Crystal Waddell: And especially as small business owners and solopreneurs, like you have to play those roles whether you want to or not. Whereas if you're at a huge company, you have a bunch of different people that either split the role or they're in their different departments or whatever. But I'm like the world of business and everything is just shrinking in on itself.

[00:06:22] Crystal Waddell: You know what I mean? Like it's becoming more intertwined and all of. So I just love you put it so much more eloquently than I could have, but the fact that those things go together and they're related and I'm just like so happy that you said that.

[00:06:38] Susan Reoch: For sure. To me, a marketing website, which is what, or an e-commerce website, these are digital products and that's really my main message that I want, if people take anything from this podcast, that would be what I would like it to be.

[00:06:51] Susan Reoch: Like this is a product that you can continue to iterate and make better, with the philosophy of design thinking . Making it better iteratively [00:07:00] rather than what it's been before in marketing, which is Grand Swos and trying to, double your conversion, triple your conversion.

[00:07:07] Susan Reoch: I don't know, I'm just, and there's a place for that too. But there's also a place for this iteration.

[00:07:12] Crystal Waddell: Okay, so let's talk just a little bit about design thinking, if we can. Really quickly. Yeah, because as B and I were talking over the years, we were talking about like user journeys and we're talking about funnels and all this type of stuff.

[00:07:24] Crystal Waddell: That's what led me into this discovery of UX because I'm trying to put together all of the little pieces that people talk about, top of funnel, middle funnel, bottom of funnel. And then I realized that the iteration process had a. Which was design thinking. And I was like, and that's how I think a lot of people don't.

[00:07:44] Crystal Waddell: Mm-hmm. Get that, because like you said, they're just trying to go from A to Z and get the result. But there's so many factors that play into whether or not you get a result. And so I would love if you could just break down, maybe give us just a, I know it's probably kind of [00:08:00] hard, but give us like a brief overview of design thinking.

[00:08:03] Crystal Waddell: How that plays a role in, designing a functional website and SEO and ux.

[00:08:09] Susan Reoch: Yeah, for sure. Okay. I'll go broad strokes, I think the first thing is just really helpful, like when you discovered that. Is the language is really powerful. Knowing the language of UX and going, oh, this thing that I felt intuitively that was right actually has a name and a process and people are doing it.

[00:08:30] Susan Reoch: So I think just even the fact that people have that phrase now, design thinking and they can go and Google it and learn more about it is awesome. But the five steps are, so the first step is empathize, and this is one that often. Skipped people go straight to a solution. But you'll hear where a solution comes in design thinking.

[00:08:48] Susan Reoch: So first you empathize and you get to know the people that are gonna be using your product, and that that's buyers. Essentially. If you've got a marketing, website or an e-commerce website, then you're gonna define the [00:09:00] problem. So not the solution. You're just defining the problem that those people are trying to solve.

[00:09:05] Susan Reoch: Then you're ideating. This is where you're coming up and brainstorming with a bunch of different solutions. And step four is actually where you prototype or you create something and then you test it and then you might go back. You might get pretty good results, but not amazing. So maybe you go back a little bit more to I ideate, you feel like you've got the problems pretty sorted.

[00:09:24] Susan Reoch: Or you might go all the way. And start to empathize again. And it's just helpful. It's not like a completely linear process. You're just constantly going back through those five steps. And just as a sort of example of how that can be used when I first launched my course beyond Web copy, I had a really small list.

[00:09:42] Susan Reoch: And I didn't know the people that were gonna be like, there were whole bunches of people that I. Could be a good fit for it. So my messaging wasn't as tight as it could have been. And I think in that first round, I got seven people to sign up and I was if you listen to some podcasts [00:10:00] or some, Influences in the space, they'll be like, just throw it in, refund the money.

[00:10:04] Susan Reoch: It wasn't a success, like move on. And I was like, no, cuz I really believe that this solves a problem and a problem that people have come to me with. And I'm gonna continue to iterate on that messaging until I have it. Lockdown and now I'm seeing, 20 plus come in, which is amazing cuz it's, quite a, the cap is 30 it's quite a high touch course and coaching program.

[00:10:29] Susan Reoch: It's just of like just continuing to iterate and seeing it as a process rather than every single step as successful. Failure. I.

[00:10:38] Brittany Herzberg: I love that you said that. Okay, I wanna go back and this word keeps catching my attention and I'm sure if it's catching my attention, it's probably catching someone who's listening's attention.

[00:10:48] Brittany Herzberg: Microcopy. Can you tell me more about this? What is it? Where might we find it?

[00:10:53] Susan Reoch: You will find it everywhere once you start looking for it. So I like to think of [00:11:00] Microcopy as the little road signs of the digital world. They're the little tiny pieces of copy that guide someone through an experience.

[00:11:07] Susan Reoch: So rather than thinking of, often if we think about web copy, we think of it as a page, or a lot of people think of it as a page. The headline at the. All the way down to the bottom. Hopefully there's a CTA at the bottom. Often there isn't, but hopefully there is. , and everything that goes in between.

[00:11:22] Susan Reoch: But when we are thinking user experience, we are more thinking a journey. Like how does someone go from your homepage maybe to your services page, to then getting in touch with you and then you send them an email, like it actually continues on beyond. The asset that you might be designing, whether that's a website, whether it's social media posts, like people are moving around the internet.

[00:11:43] Susan Reoch: So the bits of microcopy are the things that keep people on track. Those little tiny messages that pop up that tell you to keep going or what information is coming next or what is required. Even just little labels on a form as so important. Your button copy is an obvious one. Your navigation [00:12:00] Crystal.

[00:12:00] Crystal Waddell: Have you ever heard of a guy named Jon Mowat? I'm not sure how to pronounce it, saying No Haven. He is a video probably a videographer is the best description for him, but also he wrote a book about video marketing and what you're talking about, he discussed in his book and that was how he was selling and packaging video marketing services were just these micro pieces of copy which were actually video content.

[00:12:28] Crystal Waddell: And he talks about how to apply it from an organic, through a paid promotion. And I thought that's so neat because you guys are just parallel one's copy and one's video, but you're talking about these little pieces of content that move people. Down the funnel essentially. So

[00:12:46] Susan Reoch: yeah, that nudge people along and they're so important.

[00:12:49] Susan Reoch: And I think especially Crystal for you with an e-commerce site or anyone listening with an e-commerce site, if you grab I think Brittany kindly said that I could share a link to one of my [00:13:00] resources, which is the Microcopy Micro Course. And it's a very simple three-step process to writing Microcopy.

[00:13:05] Susan Reoch: So if anyone, wants to. See it all written down. What I'm gonna talk about now, that's a place to grab it. But essentially on e-commerce, I was writing out all the places that you find microcopy on e-commerce and it fills a whole page. There is so much microcopy in e-commerce, it's wild. But rather than looking at it all and getting overwhelmed, it's just what are the, what's the main thing I want someone to do on my website or e-commerce?

[00:13:30] Susan Reoch: It's probably to buy something, and what do they need? Practically, enter your credit card details here. What do they actually need? They need to go get the credit card. They might need to see where the numbers are on the credit card. Like what practical information do they need, but also what emotional information do they need?

[00:13:47] Susan Reoch: Are they feeling anxious? Are they feeling excited? How can you tap into that and get them pumped to click that.

[00:13:54] Brittany Herzberg: Actually, as you're talking, I'm realizing Crystal, you do the ideation part of this. Like you have the [00:14:00] big giant concept and I'm the one that sort of does the execution of it, especially like that emotional piece, like it, that's fascinating to me to see like the different roles that we play.

[00:14:11] Brittany Herzberg: Even with that, just with the podcast, because I know for me at least, it comes from my need to. I'm the person. If we're going to, if we say we're gonna go grab coffee, I'm gonna get my phone out and look at the like map view and see where the parking lot is . Like I need to know that there is a parking lot because I cannot parallel park Los Daniels in the car.

[00:14:31] Brittany Herzberg: And if he's not in the car, I'm not parallel parking. I will pay $30 an hour to park my car, . So that's the kind of stuff that like, I want a podcast guest to know. I want my students to know that. I want a client to know that. I want my friends to know that. So that's fascinating to hear you talk.

[00:14:46] Crystal Waddell: And it's also funny because while we both have your very, both, like deeply empathetic, I think we had that in common. I'm the one that's texting her to say, do you have the address? I'm driving your direction. Can you send me some [00:15:00] directions, or something like that, because I don't care.

[00:15:02] Crystal Waddell: I'm just like, I'm woo, let's get there and party, whatever, it is a very fun relat. . But I would, I wanted to talk just really quick about the e-commerce side of things, cuz b and I have talked about this before. I'm like jealous of service providers because I'm like, it's the way to go.

[00:15:17] Crystal Waddell: We have Three or four pages of a website. What is that? Like how do you even SEO that or whatever, because I'm thinking I've got like hundreds of pages and there's so much, different things going on the page. And recently I had a client reach out because I designed these custom posters for athletes.

[00:15:35] Crystal Waddell: And so she ordered a poster, but her kid wasn't an athlete, her kid was a drama person. You know, First I'm asking, what Jersey number do you want? She's I don't have a jersey number. I'm like, kid's, not an athlete. And I'm like, okay, did we wanna do initials?

[00:15:50] Crystal Waddell: What are we doing here? And she's like, I don't really know. And I'm thinking I don't really know either. , we have to find a way to meet in the middle, so I called her. It turned out she [00:16:00] wanted the graduation year, which was 23, but it made me think of her journey and how fortunate I was that she actually went ahead and purchased.

[00:16:08] Crystal Waddell: Not knowing what she was actually buying. And I thought, how could I reassure people like her in the future, that when they come to our store, that we can in fact help them, even if what we're offering isn't exactly what. They're involved in. And as I was thinking about that, I'm like, okay, what could it be a pop-up, that pops up on the page to say, here is a question that a lot of people ask.

[00:16:33] Crystal Waddell: Should I do a video? Should I embed an app? So it's just crazy. Like I, those are thoughts that I think e-commerce store owners have about multiple products, because that's not the only product that we sell that a lot of service providers just don't have to. To do and dig into.

[00:16:51] Susan Reoch: Oh, 100%.

[00:16:52] Susan Reoch: But they're the challenges. I'm already like brainstorming. I know. See it .

[00:16:56] Crystal Waddell: Let's go

[00:16:58] Susan Reoch: I'm like, no, there's a [00:17:00] simple, there's a simple piece of microcopy and a bullet point or a fact, like it's all about the timing, right? Because you don't want. You also don't wanna distract people, right?

[00:17:10] Susan Reoch: Who are coming there for the main, like the majority of your customers are gonna be, athletes or, buying gifts for athletes. So you don't wanna throw them off with a popup that's Hey, not an athlete. They'll be like, whoa, this isn't for me. This is disruptive. So you, it's all about like just dripping out that information at a time.

[00:17:29] Susan Reoch: Yeah, that's relevant to that person and making it as personalized as possible. And the fact that you are even thinking this way is a very UX way of thinking. It's I get feedback, I don't dismiss it. I consider the user journey, I consider the emotional journey where is appropriate to, to provide this reassurance.

[00:17:46] Brittany Herzberg: So as you're talking, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people making with. UX mistakes that they might be making on their websites?

[00:17:57] Susan Reoch: Yeah, for sure. I think the really, at the most [00:18:00] basic one that I see people going wrong is not being clear. And just trying to sound clever.

[00:18:06] Susan Reoch: Or using very inflated language, very jargon, heavy language cuz we all work in our own, bubble. And we're all used to a very specific way of thinking. I was in a space with a lot of coaches. Recently, and I was like, whoa, this is like an entirely different language. The way that they, the way that they communicate, they just use a different sort of vocab to what I am used to.

[00:18:29] Susan Reoch: It was beautiful, but I was like, wow, this is I feel very sophisticated here. So it's just being really mindful of that because that can be very jarring and make people feel very excluded if they're not in that world and they don't understand it. So I think that's the number one thing that I see.

[00:18:44] Susan Reoch: But another thing is trying to jam every single aspect of their business onto a website. And that can be, service providers where they wanna show the entire, you know, they get confused sometimes that a website is their HR department, and [00:19:00] this is every single thing that we do. And this is all the people.

[00:19:02] Susan Reoch: And this is all about me instead of what does the customer actually need? And it's often a lot less than what is out there. And with e-commerce, I think that was such a good example, crystal of oh, this person needs to know this and this person needs to know this, and this person needs to know this.

[00:19:16] Susan Reoch: I'll put it all on there. And it just becomes overwhelming. For everyone. So it's like how little can I actually get away with and trying to strip as much away as possible. It's the first thing that I do with Microcopy or any kind of copy. If I'm doing an audit, I'm like, first, what can I take away?

[00:19:34] Susan Reoch: How can I strip this back? And then is there anything I need to add?

[00:19:38] Brittany Herzberg: I really love that. Even as you're talking about business owners, we really do think that we need to shove everything on the website. , I'm working with a client like we just wrapped, like the website should be live pretty soon, they were like, this is a problem and this is a problem and this is a problem.

[00:19:52] Brittany Herzberg: I'm like, you've got 14 problems. They're all different. We really need to like squish that down. Like how basic can we get? What's at the [00:20:00] root of most of these? It's a challenge that I like. It's a challenge that I notice a lot of business owners very much resist, for anyone, just I don't know any second word.

[00:20:10] Brittany Herzberg: Any like reminder, any little like mindset tip that you might have for these people? ?

[00:20:16] Susan Reoch: Yeah. I think that thinking. Outside your website is really useful in this. So like just take a breath. They don't have to get everything from the website. What is the website's job? Is it to get someone to get in touch with you if you're a service provider, in which case you can have a conversation, you can tell them everything that you wanna know, you can hear their questions, but just staying really focused on that.

[00:20:38] Susan Reoch: So there's another framework that people might like to look up called Jobs to be Done. So it basically says that when people are coming to your website, They're trying to do something. They're trying to complete a job. So if you think about what those people are trying to do, just give them the information so that they can do that job, and then leave everything else behind and know that you have social media [00:21:00] posts and emails going out.

[00:21:01] Susan Reoch: It sits within an entire ecosystem. It's not. It's not, everything in this one little bubble, which is where I think a lot of the, a lot of the panic comes from. And I hope that reassures some people that they can leave some things off and just trust that people can get that information if they need it in another way.

[00:21:18] Brittany Herzberg: I'm just gonna say one line and then Crystal, it's all you. That reminds me of an SEO term that Crystal brings up a lot. See, I'm giving you credit. Search intent like that all ties into everything. So to bring UX and SEO together, like search intent is huge.

[00:21:31] Crystal Waddell: I just wanted to throw out another book and we both read it.

[00:21:34] Crystal Waddell: It's Donald Miller's book Story brand, yeah. And that it has. Premise that your every page should basically just have one big idea and one call to action, and that really. Forces you strip everything else away to say, okay, what is the one most important thing that will, affect , someone actually converting, or what is a conversion?

[00:21:55] Crystal Waddell: What's the conversion that I want? And it's crazy when you take everything away [00:22:00] and you say, I can only have one thing. And everything gets a lot more clear.

[00:22:04] Crystal Waddell: They just need what they need to make the decision. I love what you said and, really just going outside of your industry to get ideas and that has been one of my most favorite things about meeting other business owners. Is seeing how they run their business. And even though it's a completely different industry, just thinking, oh, I can take pieces of that customer service, thing that they do.

[00:22:30] Crystal Waddell: Or I can take a piece of their shipping, or I can take a piece of their website or whatever, and it has nothing to do with e-commerce. Has nothing to do with me or anything that I know, even as copywriters I say, oh, I love how she does that. I'm totally gonna use that in my e-commerce business.

[00:22:47] Crystal Waddell: So I just think all of that's so neat.

[00:22:49] Brittany Herzberg: That's great. Okay, I have, I'm gonna go back to micro copy again because I love micro copy now. So what makes for the most impactful pieces of microcopy, do you have any tips for us there?

[00:23:00] Susan Reoch: [00:23:00] Yeah, for sure. I think it's first thinking, do I.

[00:23:04] Susan Reoch: Anything here at all? Or can I get rid of it? Is it a distraction that's gonna stop people from clicking that button or doing whatever it is that they need to do? If it is needed? Where are people emotionally and what information do they need from me? What is the message before you get to writing the words?

[00:23:21] Susan Reoch: What am I trying to say? And literally what I'm trying to say. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then thinking, okay, how can I say this in the clearest way possible. So not confusing people with overly brand heavy cutesy potentially inaccessible words, but just really clear, really direct, really straightforward, still friendly, thinking of yourself as a customer service person, what would I say if someone came to my desk here, my desk is where the piece of Microcopy is, and they were confused or overwhelmed or upset, or super excited and pumped to collect their thing, what would I say to [00:24:00] them And you'd probably say it in a quite straightforward way.

[00:24:02] Susan Reoch: So that's the biggest tip with Microcopy is don't try to get too fancy with your words. Try to keep it nice and. . .

[00:24:09] Crystal Waddell: I love that so much, and I'm so glad that we're talking about this because I'm like, that's really what I wanna know.

[00:24:15] Crystal Waddell: What's the process for the great, the best UX copy that you can create on your website? Do you have some insights that you can share with us?

[00:24:24] Susan Reoch: Yeah, for sure. So I actually have another resource that people can grab. Give us all the links, give us, it's a lot . Yeah, for sure. . Which is, a web copy ux guide.

[00:24:34] Susan Reoch: So the six step process that I outline in detail, and that is basically the first thing that you wanna do is find that point of connection between user goals and business goals. So I just talked about jobs to be done. , what is the user or the reader, or the buyer, or the customer, whatever you wanna call them, what is their.

[00:24:50] Susan Reoch: And how does it match to a business goal? So an example for that is, very basic. A copywriter who wants to learn more about UX [00:25:00] matches perfectly with my business goal of selling my program beyond web copy. But I think sometimes can, people can just get a little bit business centric with what they're trying to achieve and not think about it that there are actually perfect fit customers out there for all of us that are trying to do something that our business goal connects with.

[00:25:18] Susan Reoch: So finding that point of connection is really important. Then when you're looking at a whole website, it's really important to provide. A structure or an architecture, that's gonna make sense in terms of user journeys, how someone is gonna move. Can they find everything that they're looking for?

[00:25:35] Susan Reoch: And can you provide moments of discovery for them where they might not be looking for something, but there's something very delightful that you wanna share with them. Maybe that's, if you're an e-commerce, maybe that's a discount. or a promotion code. I had a very frustrating UX yesterday when I was ordering something and I literally hit by and I saw the banner up the top for a 30% off code

[00:25:56] Susan Reoch: I was like, and I'm like, [00:26:00] why didn't checkout? Come on. That's so annoying. So like just thinking about that's a big topic, but thinking about the information architecture is really important. The next thing that I look at, that's the big structure or the skeleton of your site. So the next thing I look at is the logical hierarchy of each page.

[00:26:17] Susan Reoch: Within that, Structure. So it's the most important information at the top. And then, going down the page to the least important. And then connecting all those pages. So you've got the skeleton, you've got each of the individual pages there. How am I connecting those user journeys with microcopy?

[00:26:31] Susan Reoch: How am I just nudging and, directing people through each of those user journeys. And then going in even more granular. So a lot of UX and copywriting is sort. Coming right back for a huge bird's eye view and then zooming right in, how are those points of conversion optimized? Am I getting people really excited?

[00:26:50] Susan Reoch: Am I taking away all their fear and hesitation to click that button and just to move the next step? I think another mistake that I see is people trying to sell the thing [00:27:00] right back when people are top of funnel. Do you know, like when really we're just trying to get people to take these little. Down, so it doesn't have to be a big conversion on your very first button.

[00:27:11] Susan Reoch: You know from an email, you're just trying to get someone to a sales page. From a sales page, you're just trying to get 'em to a checkout page. And from a checkout page, that's when you're trying to get them to buy. If you're looking at a sales page, Situation. And then finally, is just making sure that you're reaching as many people as possible by making sure that your language is inclusive, that it's accessible, and testing that it's effective, that it's actually doing its job.

[00:27:35] Susan Reoch: So they're the six big steps, but like I said, there's a reason there was a lot there, . And there is a resource where people can dig more into that.

[00:27:42] Brittany Herzberg: I love that. I'm excited to link all of the.

[00:27:46] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I, when you said moments of discovery, I'm like, that has happened for us on Pinterest. Like those moments of discovery, I hear about 'em all the time from people who are like, I was searching for something for my boyfriend, or I was searching for something for my [00:28:00] son, and then I saw your poster or your collage on Pinterest, and I thought, that's what I want.

[00:28:06] Crystal Waddell: So it's funny because they just know they want this really cool gift, but they don't really know what it is. And then they're like, that's it. So I love Pinterest for that. But another question I had was, when you're thinking about, moving people along those little steps, one thing I like about GA four that they've come out with is I get these notifications that say, it takes X number of touches before somebody converts.

[00:28:30] Crystal Waddell: Or this many conversions come from organic search, that type of thing. So how do you put that data together? To make your customer journey, before I knew about creating wire frames and those different structures I have this crazy structure that I made on some whiteboard program.

[00:28:50] Crystal Waddell: I forgot what it was they have a free version and instead of getting the paid version, I just built like all of these different structures on there because [00:29:00] I was trying to figure out where everything fit in the funnel.

[00:29:02] Crystal Waddell: I'll have to share it with you after this. But I'm just wondering, like how do you take those pieces of data and make it meaningful in a user journey?

[00:29:10] Susan Reoch: Is that possible? It's totally possible and it's something that I teach inside Beyond Web Copy and there are two amazing resources that everyone's like, I would've paid the cost of just for this resource.

[00:29:22] Susan Reoch: Cause I've developed myself. And one is the 60 minute story map, which literally takes you from empathizing to an entire. User story or journey through a site. And the other one is a content home, which helps you develop the information architecture. But I think if you're not gonna take the on web copy I think a really basic way to get started is to just go through a user journey yourself and get a bunch of post-it.

[00:29:47] Susan Reoch: On a wall, like I quite like working with paper and post-its and things like that on my wall. My wall next to my computer is always covered in post-Its that I've stopped my twins from pulling off and just start sticking [00:30:00] like, what happens next? What happens next? What happens next? What happens next?

[00:30:03] Susan Reoch: And you'll start to notice little gaps. Just that process of sitting down and going through it yourself. You will start to notice, oh, I need a little bit of information here, or what can I add here? Or what can I take away? What's distracting me?

[00:30:15] Crystal Waddell: This is so validating. I'm sorry. I am so sorry, but it's just so good to hear you say these things, but I kid you not, I have post it notes up on my wall that were trying to figure out the user journey, trying to figure out like, what am I missing here?

[00:30:30] Crystal Waddell: So just to hear this is just oh my gosh, I'm not crazy. There are other people who think like this .

[00:30:34] Brittany Herzberg: Well,

[00:30:35] Brittany Herzberg: And not only that, you and I also had the conversation, I think it was in December when we met up and we were like, we had this whole conversation around what's next? And then what, so to hear you say that it's yeah.

[00:30:44] Susan Reoch: . Yeah. And then what that also gives you, and what I think a lot of people forget is what they're, what's come before what I don't need to repeat because they already know this, and this. . So it's useful looking forwards. It's also incredibly useful to be looking [00:31:00] back, and that's often the first thing that I ask when people come to me and they're like, I want you to write me a sales page or a website copy. I'm like, ok, where are these people coming? , are they coming from seo? Are they coming from ads? Are they coming from your email list? Like all those things will make a big difference into where we start with our messaging and our awareness.

[00:31:18] Crystal Waddell: So when you have a client that comes to you and you ask them the question, To follow up with their answer , do you then create a diagram that pieces all of that together? Whether, because some people might come through email and some people might come through seo. So how do you manage that and hand it back to the client with something that makes sense?

[00:31:39] Susan Reoch: Yeah. It's a discussion cuz quite often they will say, I don't know. Or I'm not sure. I haven't thought about that yet. And I'm like let's think about it. And that's why I always have a big strategy session at the top of any project so that I can get really crystal clear on, on all those things and understand the entire ecosystem in which this piece of copy they've tasked [00:32:00] me to write actually sits.

[00:32:01] Susan Reoch: And it doesn't have to be, super complicated. And it can be, some people will have come from ads, some people will have come from seo. But generally there will be a dominant. One,

[00:32:12] Crystal Waddell: and so then you just choose to focus on the dominant one.

[00:32:16] Susan Reoch: Then I would focus on the dominant one until the data told me otherwise.

[00:32:20] Crystal Waddell: Cool.

[00:32:21] Brittany Herzberg: Those was awesome. I have one question, but I'm hoping it's not gonna be a giant answer, but I'm so curious with something that I run into a lot with my clients is we have these big discussions over, like they wanna add in big images that have like diagrams of certain things. And they have, they're very text heavy and.

[00:32:37] Brittany Herzberg: I always encourage them if it's something that needs to be found, if it's something that's really going to help the person or that needs to show up in order for Google or whatever search engine to recommend that page. I, suggest that we have a conversation with a web designer and talk through those things.

[00:32:52] Brittany Herzberg: But without getting into like, all of the times that I've had this discussion, do you have any like quick tips or any [00:33:00] insight into UX and SEO and how they play a role into Your graphics that you're putting on your webpages?

[00:33:08] Susan Reoch: Ooh, I'm not sure that I do. I'm not sure I've come across this specific

[00:33:12] Brittany Herzberg: really. I have one client , where honestly, she took a lot of the copy that we created , and she turned the copy into images. Ok. And so her website ended up looking like just a stack of, oh, is

[00:33:23] Susan Reoch: that, Okay. I see what you mean. Sorry. I was thinking Like almost scientific drawings, do you know what I mean?

[00:33:29] Susan Reoch: Or very complicated. Things like that. That's really tricky cuz you definitely don't want everything on an image. Especially cuz on mobile it will be a disaster and as we know, most people are on mobile. So I always like to design my copy mobile first. So I wondered if there's a way then again, looking at the whole user journey and it's hard to note without knowing the specifics, but I would just be.

[00:33:52] Susan Reoch: Is this the most appropriate place for this information? Or can this information be conveyed on the website in a different way and perhaps there's a downloadable [00:34:00] or a next step or something where they can get it in this different form. So that's one way that I would potentially be thinking about it.

[00:34:08] Susan Reoch: But yeah, definitely even when I include like little screenshots of Social proof, which look great when you show a little screenshot and you're like, I haven't adopted this or something. This is a real text message that someone sent me, or a real Facebook comment. It's always best practice to include like the The text again below it so that not just for not just for clarity, but also for screen readers and things like that.

[00:34:33] Susan Reoch: I guess you could also have an alt text, but I like to have it just for anyone who's, who finds it hard to read that image that they also have it in your font below it. So yeah. Yeah, I definitely would advise against having. Just a website full of images. But yeah. I'd love to know your, cuz you are more from an SEO perspective, I'm more from a UX perspective.

[00:34:53] Susan Reoch: So what would your advice be?

[00:34:55] Brittany Herzberg: I definitely, I wrote the copy intending it to, to be just displayed [00:35:00] on the website, but even as you're talking about the screenshots I've brought her up several times. Robbie, we have, she's my . She and I have this inside joke and it's not very PC to say it, so she's my blind web designer friend and we talk about her frequently on the podcast.

[00:35:14] Brittany Herzberg: And every time that I think of. How can I make this more accessible for someone? I'm literally always thinking like, how can I make this easier for Robbie? And thinking of having the text from the screenshot, then like in a caption I'm assuming it's what you're just describing. I'm like, man, that's brilliant and it's such a simple thing to go back and do and it would be so helpful.

[00:35:33] Brittany Herzberg: And if you're looking for that SEO extra credit that I talk about frequently, that also helps that as well. But I hadn't thought about doing something like that and that's it's such an easy thing to.

[00:35:44] Susan Reoch: So much of it is so easy when it comes to accessibility. It just requires that extra step.

[00:35:49] Susan Reoch: That's why it's step number six. Just a last minute, hang on. And not just for someone you know that can't see permanently, but for someone who's in low light or Or [00:36:00] it's just had LASIK or like there are so many situations in which we can't see, I now need reading glasses and I'm waiting for them to arrive.

[00:36:07] Susan Reoch: So I'm holding everything out here can I see it? , cause these are all people that can buy your product and that won't, if they can't get the information. . Yeah,

[00:36:14] Crystal Waddell: I think that's interesting cuz this last weekend I actually had my. Speaking gig or my first speaking job this past weekend where I was speaking to photographers about s e o.

[00:36:24] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I was really excited. I loved it. So much fun. The fact is Google and search engines can't really read images just yet. You know what I mean? If. Someone knows what they're looking for and they use like Google Lens or like the Pinterest image inspector or something like that, they might be able to find what they're looking for, but for the most part, Google needs text to understand what it's looking at or what is going on that page.

[00:36:48] Crystal Waddell: And then also how it relates to other things on the page or on the website and then the greater web . So yeah, I would definitely say if you have lots of image. Let's make sure we have [00:37:00] lots of texts as well to explain what's going on.

[00:37:03] Susan Reoch: Yeah. And such a good point. And I think there's a bit of a myth or a misunderstanding about design that comes into play for people where people think that design is how something looks like.

[00:37:15] Susan Reoch: Does it look super fancy and flashy and amazing when you actually think about it and think about it in the physical world, which I like to get people to do a lot, good design is how something. So you could have the most beautiful handbag in the world, but if it doesn't hold my phone, if I can't open it easily with one hand while I've got the twins, if it slides off my shoulder all the time, like I'm not gonna use that handbag.

[00:37:38] Susan Reoch: I'm gonna use the handbag that actually works and does the job. Then it needs to do. I want it to look great. as well. Of course one doesn't negate the other, but I think quite often with websites, people get caught up with this idea of how it looks, but they forget what's more important to someone using it is how it works.

[00:37:55] Brittany Herzberg: , I'm so happy to hear you say that.

[00:37:57] Crystal Waddell: So how do you quantify [00:38:00] UX to other business owners? Because I, I see UX from an outsider perspective as something that larger companies can invest in. But something that smaller companies definitely need, because like you said, there's this element of, oh, I need a website.

[00:38:18] Crystal Waddell: And so it's oh yeah, you have a website that has beautiful pictures or whatever. But guess what? They have no idea whether there's been any s e o done on the backside. I think people assume that when they get a website that this idea of SEO is built into the website, and so therefore they don't have to worry about it anymore.

[00:38:34] Crystal Waddell: But in actuality, in the past it's been two different things, web development and search engine optimization, and they're not done by the same person typically. You know how do you even make someone aware that they need this? That iteration is part of the process and it is not necessarily going to equal higher revenue immediately.

[00:38:56] Susan Reoch: Yeah I think I would always go for the big wins first. [00:39:00] I think there is often, money on the table that can be scooped up with better ux. So it's not that you're not gonna see any results , straight off the bat. And. Sometimes they can be really big. And this is why I love the combination of UX with conversion copywriting because I see them as complimentary to each other.

[00:39:17] Susan Reoch: And exactly what you were saying about how previously a web designer was separate from s e o, like that to me. Is just wild. And it's the same thing. I just, I think like a copywriter needs to, under a website copywriter, if you're gonna be a website copywriter, if you're gonna hire a website copywriter, they need to understand seo, they need to understand ux, and they need to understand conversion copywriting because that is what.

[00:39:41] Susan Reoch: A website is, that is what you need. You need to get traffic there. People need to be able to find and discover what they're looking for, and you need to get 'em to take action for it to be a successful website. So you need to really have those three skills. And that's why I'm so passionate about upskilling copywriters specifically with this UX [00:40:00] toolkit, because yes, previously it has been reserved or a lot of.

[00:40:05] Susan Reoch: has been reserved for big companies, and they're seeing the R roi. , they're not doing this because, it feels good they're doing, cause it makes lots of money. . I mean, I can't speak for all of them, but I would imagine if I was a big business, that's what I'd be most concerned about.

[00:40:18] Susan Reoch: So I think being able to bring it to smaller providers in my copywriting skillset is

[00:40:24] Crystal Waddell: Oh, truly. And I just want to, give some context to that, what you're just saying, because I started taking the Google UX design course because I wanted to learn how to do it. And once I found out about it, I was like, oh, okay, this is great.

[00:40:40] Crystal Waddell: And so then I started looking for UX design jobs just to familiarize myself with what I needed to learn, in terms of the skillset and the pay for UX designers is. Good. In my world, a hundred thousand dollars or more to do this particular job, which to me sounds like so much [00:41:00] fun.

[00:41:01] Crystal Waddell: is wow. And a lot of the positions are remote, but it's really just improving and iterating on product development. And so when we're talking about UX design, if you're listening right now and you've never heard of it, it's not just a random, Thing on the internet that people do?

[00:41:18] Crystal Waddell: No, it's a very highly valued and a very well-paying position for many companies and many people are bigger companies. They employ several designers.

[00:41:29] Susan Reoch: Oh, hundreds. Hundreds of designers. Yeah. And hundreds of writers. Yeah. For sure. It's massive. It's massive. So we haven't really touched on that side of it, but when I was working, deeply in UX and with some consulting work that I still do now, you are going into whole teams that are dedicated to just one part of the website.

[00:41:47] Susan Reoch: Do you know and these are teams that work with a, something called a product donor, a team. A developer, backend and front end designers, backend and front end, and writers and also data analysts getting all the information, [00:42:00] dedicated researchers, it's just a whole other world out there.

[00:42:03] Susan Reoch: But what I love is taking that. And bringing it, to small business and to other copywriters and helping them share in some of the joy of it, because it just, beyond the results that you can get, it just makes life easier. Wow. It's just, it just, there are all these principles, heuristics, laws out there that.

[00:42:22] Susan Reoch: A research proven and you can just take them and apply them to your website and then see if it works. .

[00:42:31] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. It's as simple as that. No, that's like mind boggling to hear how many writers and UX people, designers are on teams. It's just what? Yeah. And then we're over here by ourselves with our businesses and going, we're failing.

[00:42:45] Brittany Herzberg: No, you're just like one person. Yeah.

[00:42:48] Susan Reoch: Yeah. And wearing many,

[00:42:50] Crystal Waddell: Thank you. I love how you're talking about bringing this to small business owners, because that was the very thought that I have. I was like, this is [00:43:00] information that should be accessible to small business owners. You know what I mean? And again, a lot of it just goes back to the back end of SEO and how B and I got started with this podcast is just understanding and seeing.

[00:43:12] Crystal Waddell: Our peers who didn't understand what was happening on their website, and they would come to us and come to find out, oh my goodness, you are a candle shop and someone set up your jewelry store, SEO, , based on someone else's jewelry store, and you have no idea why you're not showing up in search results.

[00:43:30] Crystal Waddell: Or, while you're invisible online or even not understanding that, Google Search Console if Google doesn't index your. That page is invisible online. That you might as well not even exist. So it doesn't matter how beautiful your website is, if you don't understand how some of these things work and how you actually get found online.

[00:43:51] Crystal Waddell: I just, I think B and I really both just were on a mission when we started and it continues to this day, but just to help people understand. [00:44:00] That's not all there is, don't stop with the surface. Don't, we don't want you to be overwhelmed, but we want you to be informed. .

[00:44:07] Brittany Herzberg: Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[00:44:09] Brittany Herzberg: Okay. I loved this conversation. I think we could probably just keep on recording this for the rest of the day, but, you have, you're, you have the future to look forward to. , remind us or let us know, like where people can find you, and then maybe just remind us of those two resources that you've got that we're gonna link for the listen.

[00:44:26] Susan Reoch: Yeah, for sure. So people can find me at my website, which is Susan Reoch, r e o c h. copywriter.com. Need to change my last name, or they can find me at, on Instagram at Susan rescore copywriter. Or on LinkedIn at Susan reoc. And the two resources that I was talking about which are gonna kindly link is the Microcopy Micro course, which is just my.

[00:44:47] Susan Reoch: System for writing the mighty mighty words that keep customers engaged and buying online. And that in that is 14 before and after example. So it's a really handy use resource that people can get inspiration from for their own [00:45:00] websites. And the second one, with those six steps that I walk through to writing high converting UX copy for the web.

[00:45:05] Susan Reoch: Yeah, and if you'll link both of those, that'd be great so people can know more. And if you get, grab those freebies. You can choose to be popped onto my the UX factor in newsletter, which honestly is where I think most of my golden content goes.

[00:45:18] Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, it's amazing. It's, I love reading your emails.

[00:45:22] Crystal Waddell: I cannot wait to read your emails.

[00:45:26] Brittany Herzberg: Crystal's gonna sign up for everything.

[00:45:28] Susan Reoch: Get all the things. Yeah.

[00:45:31] Brittany Herzberg: All right. Thank you so much for being here. We really I had a blast. I think Crystal did too. I'll speak for her even though she's

[00:45:35] Crystal Waddell: right here. . Yeah. I'm like, it's already been an hour. Are you kidding me?

[00:45:39] Crystal Waddell: That was, I know. So fun.

[00:45:41] Susan Reoch: This was amazing. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:45:43] Brittany Herzberg: All right. We'll catch you on the next episode . Bye

[00:45:47] Crystal Waddell: bye.

[00:45:48] Crystal Waddell: Bye.